Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Feb 24, 2018
1,140
Also something I've noticed over the past few years, when I see women of my age, I often hear like myself how much Misty from Pokemon made an impact in our childhood or have at least fond memories of her and in Pokemon specific polls, she often ends up high in like Best Gym leader etc.

However, whenever I see polls or discussions of the best women in video games, I rarely see her brought up and more once when I asked this, people seem to forget that she is a video game character rather then an anime one. Just feels weird for a character who arguably made a big impact on many children in the late 90s and early 00s often now gets dismissed or underappreciated nowadays.
 
May 13, 2019
1,201
Hello, don't post here often, mostly because I feel I can't add much to the discussion. However yesterday, me and a friend were discussing Smash and what happened to Mai Shiranui being shafted from making an appearance because her design was to sexualised despite her importance to Fatal Fury, KOF and SNK in general and the dangers of how sexualization that devs indulge in can then ultimately limit the roles and appearances of women in the public and outside the immediate fandom because of it.
I don't think that's the case as this is the first (and most likely last) time that Mai's appearance will prevent her from making cameos in other works since all past guest appearances happened because of her position as SNK's main fanservice provider and not in spite of.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,758
30-50 wild buff shirtless men won't change how poorly fitting (and awful imo) the designs are for those blades in a game where you fight foes in an otherwise grounded world.
 

arcadepc

Member
Dec 28, 2019
387
I don't think that's the case as this is the first (and most likely last) time that Mai's appearance will prevent her from making cameos in other works since all past guest appearances happened because of her position as SNK's main fanservice provider and not in spite of.
Reminds me of SNK Athena, who predated Mai in fanservice vs Athena Asamiya who was a distant relative and was only recently given a Sailor school uniform because SNK did not think it would translate well abroad

Regarding SNK designer Nona:


His art uses a heavy reliance on light and shadow, making his art look more sculpted and darker in tone than his colleagues. He tends to draw his assigned characters with fashion model-like physiques and anime-inspired faces. A special request from the staff was to make his art "more like KOF '94" in KOF 2002, something he personally struggled with since it meant simplifying his style. He was also asked to do the character art for The King of Fighters 2003 but was too busy in his personal life at the time to participate, asking Falcoon to take his place.

For illustration, Falcoon solely uses Photoshop.[3] His art is recognized by its heavy emphasis on muscle and weight for both genders (the proportions vary though it has a very anime-like influence), shaded with sharp gradients and highlights. His designs are also influenced by the bizarre yet colorful clothing found in Japanese street fashion, particularly Lolita and Fruits fashions. In several interviews, he insists that, while he looks at books, movies and magazines for inspiration, he prefers create from his own mind because he worries he'll get too influenced,[3] so he uses no reference for his work, relying only on "strong images from memory". He was once an avid gamer and loves to visit the local game center on his time off. He hopes to make games where people can practice them like a sport and "perfect their skills like I used to." Falcoon claims that, after becoming a professional illustrator, he no longer looks after other illustrator and prefers to consider them competition since he fears it would influence him too much.[3]
 
Aug 26, 2018
440
The reason Juri was brought up was because I noticed Juri WAS in Smash Ultimate as a spirit (in fact she's the only non 90s/Post-SF3 character in the game) with that SF4 image sans the background which I was curious about that was allowed by the Japanese rating system but Mai wasn't given they are both revealing and wondered if the way sexualisation is presented affected the choices.
Well, Juri is wearing pants while Mai isn't. That could've just been it. Otherwise, it'd be frontal cleavage is bad but side and underboob are okay. I dunno.

This is hard to adjudicate because we don't know the evaluation process, if the same person reviewed both characters, if it was by committee, if 2D art is judged differently from 3D models, etc.

Regardless of any of this, if they really wanted Mai in the game, it's not like they couldn't have made it work. She's had a number of artworks with her in more conservative outfits. And if she was just going to be in the background, then surely there were options.
 

Morrigan

Arrogant Smirk
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
14,121
So what? To me, that's basically the same as Yoko Taro saying "I like girls" as justification for 2B in Nier Automata.

Certainly, that doesn't make her design any less deserving of criticism.
I suggest you re-read the post you're quoting, because it appears you're disagreeing here when in fact that's exactly what the post is saying...
 

4 Get!

Member
Apr 8, 2019
228
I'm not gonna post the pro zd anime fan video for the billionth time, but there has never been a clearer case of a fan assigning enlightened intent when there is a first hand interview of the director saying she looks the way she does because the artist wanted it that way posted just a couple screens away. Gwynevere isn't a direct reference to dnd art, which suspiciously echoes the dragon's crown rationale, miyazaki just asked the art team to make him a 20 foot tall princess that players would be the least inclined to attack with maybe some extra direction about making her 'saintly' or 'matronly' or whatever, and one guy brought back chungas chest gwynerear and said 'this is my waifu and no one would ever harm her' and miyazaki said 'that's weird but okay, approved.' Like the rest of the game's art direction she is inspired from western art sources, specifically she looks more like a greek oracle or something, but the boob window in her dress is not an allusion to the breast feeding scene in the grapes of wrath.
The problem with the interview is that they don't show the full process of how he decided to utilize the character and what she meant to the overall plot. He's telling this funny story about an artist who took liberties with the character and some of you are treating it as "this is exactly how it is". They didn't go into why he was so lenient with her design when compared to other characters. It's even implied that she is a throwaway character, which is why he let his artist take those liberties in the first place. The full developer's story isn't all there but we're taking a small snippet and treating it as the end all be all. It reminds me of how people tend to read the headlines of news articles and then go prematurely jumping to form an opinion based off of that small tidbit of information. It tends to happen on this website too.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,043
Also something I've noticed over the past few years, when I see women of my age, I often hear like myself how much Misty from Pokemon made an impact in our childhood or have at least fond memories of her and in Pokemon specific polls, she often ends up high in like Best Gym leader etc.

However, whenever I see polls or discussions of the best women in video games, I rarely see her brought up and more once when I asked this, people seem to forget that she is a video game character rather then an anime one. Just feels weird for a character who arguably made a big impact on many children in the late 90s and early 00s often now gets dismissed or underappreciated nowadays.
To be fair, game Misty didn't have much personality in the 90's. She was as developed as any gym leader (that is, 5 or 6 lines of dialogue).
 

Machachan

Member
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
I think it's genius. In an entire land of hollows, the dead, armored knights, and beasts, you have this one character who looks like she belongs in an entirely different game, in order to raise a red flag for the player and/or trick them into thinking there is actually a moment of sunshine and happiness in an entirely desolate place.
We (as a gaming community) always assume that Dark Souls is genius and that, therefore, anything in it is genius, every single element.

But let me ask a heretical question. Is this actually the case?

Let's not look at the ideal dark souls, but the actual dark souls. What female characters are actually there?
  • A whole host of Princesses/maidens - Dusk of Oolacile, Reah, Anastacia, very typically female characters in male-aimed fantasy stories, all of which are very, well, helpless.
  • Priscilla. Technically a waif as well (her portrayal really fits to this!) but I'm mostly counting her as a positive.
  • The two spider sisters, of course bare chested, and the first you see (LONG before Anor Londo) has a cutscene that immediately zooms on her breasts. The second is absolutely helpless.
  • The Darkmoon Knightest who, aside a few summons/invaders the only fighty female character. Stands out way more than Amazing Chest
  • The Witch of Izalith, who is, by the way, the only female Lord, and by far the most pathetic (weird that!). Most people don't even realize you probably do encounter her.
  • A few non-pretty NPCs, who I like (undead merchant! the cat! the mushroom!). A few meaning three.
For most of the game, all you see is stereotypical fantasy ladies. Waifu, usually fairly helpless. Queelag immediately has the camera turn into a horndog. When you get to Anor Londo, what you saw of female characters is generic as heck. Amazing Chest Ahead is not in fact the Thing That Does Not Fit The Game.

Quite the opposite: Her generic fanservice appeal is as generic as what you saw before when it came to most female characters! When I saw her, I didn't think. "oooh, boobies, this is finally a safe haven, so good, much peace, wow", I just groaned, because she was another one in a long list of female characters that are just fairly typical for dude-aimed fantasy.

Yeah, she's looking like a generic sexy waifu, but is she really out of place? I argue she's not. She's fitting in perfectly. You're typically getting to her relatively shortly after "zoom on breast" spiderlady. You've already met a firekeeper and a number of waifs. You've only seen two female characters (three counting the cat, maybe) that aren't of that mold. Gwynevere is just another one of the typical ones!

Priscilla stands out far more than Gwynevere does. Sure, also fairly waify, but she's one of the few bosses you don't even have to fight - she just gives you the exit, just like that. She's generous, and sure seems to consider her home pretty nice. She's seeking nothing, unlike everyone else, including the illusionary Gwynevere. If anyone stands out, it's Priscilla. If we're supposed to assume Gwynevere is this supposed unfitting element, it'd be pretty weird to have Priscilla in the same general area, but...she's right around the corner. If Gwynevere was supposed to be such a subversion, putting Priscilla next to her would greatly weaken this, and yet that's exactly what they did.

In conclusion, I think taking Miyazaki at his word is the more sensible conclusion than assume genius because the game added boobies.


It's fine when not every element of Dark Souls holds up all that well. Neither does the entire Lost Izalith area. It's still a good game.

Those who are even the slight bit curious about the plot of Dark Souls
And this paragraph is just rude. People that do not agree that "showing tits is genius" are not uncurious, nor is any sort of lore "lost" on them.

The idea that the special leader is an illusion isn't new or difficult to understand. Remember The Wizard of Oz?

This really is "breathing out of her skin is genius and you'll be sorry once you understand the genius" all over again, imo.
 

Morrigan

Arrogant Smirk
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
14,121
Machachan you're right that the mental gymnastics trying to handwave Gwynevere are pretty much nonsense, but you're wrong about other female characters. You forgot about Sieglinde, Quelana, and Ciaran. I am also unsure what makes the Witch of Izalith the most "pathetic" of the Lords, exactly.

It's also worth pointing out that there's plenty of helpless male NPCs in need of rescue as well, so it's not like the game singles out women there. For just about every helpless female NPC you rescue, you rescue a male one too. It's just a common trope of unlocking new NPCs/vendors in Souls games really.
 

Sleepwalker

Member
Oct 29, 2017
110
Hi peeps, first of all I gotta say this is one of my favorite threads to look up, there's always so much insightful commentary to read here, the trash the industry spews at us is always worth discussion, and there aren't a lot, if any, places on the internet that provide such meaningful criticisms.

Now, regarding Gwynevere, it's a mixed bag for me. She kind of works as a design because she's supposed to be this goddess of fertility, but come on, we all know what the designers were thinking when creating her. For me, she did stand out from the rest of the game because, while Dark Souls uses a lot of medieval tropes like damsels, they are far more grounded and low key than Gwynevere, who's this gigantic, radiant goddess with a blaring 'heavenly' soundtrack to accompany her. I'd definitely prefer a more nuanced depiction of her status as a symbol of motherhood and fertility rather than what we got which was basically 'lol big boobies xd'.

As for the Souls series at large, I appreciate From's output regarding female characters, as they're generally really tastefully clothed, and the series has a lot of my favorite female designs in fantasy media in general. However, some designs are a pandering mess and they should absolutely be criticised, like Quelaag or those boob pyromancers from Dark Souls 2.

I must say that for me, From's latest output has been an improvement in terms of female designs because I honestly can't remember a single character from Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne whose design made me go 'hmmmmmm'. I'm currently playing through Sekiro, and while I'm not that far into the game, I've already come across some fantastic designs, Lady Butterfly in particular is pretty great and badass.
 
Nov 4, 2018
440
This shit just depresses me. Here I am thinking the industry and gamers as a whole are maturing and moving past these pandering designs, and a mediocre Souls clone that’s only selling point is sexualized anime characters goes and sells over a million.
God this sucks.
 
Ugh... Talking with Fire Emblem fans is such a pain sometimes. Every time I bring up criticisms about fanservice and sexually objectified women, someone will inevitably bring up the character Hawkeye, because shirtless buff dude. Dunno how you all have the patience to deal with the same arguments over and over gain.

For those who aren't familiar, here's what Hawkeye looks like:
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,408
Ugh... Talking with Fire Emblem fans is such a pain sometimes. Every time I bring up criticisms about fanservice and sexually objectified women, someone will inevitably bring up the character Hawkeye, because shirtless buff dude. Dunno how you all have the patience to deal with the same arguments over and over gain.

For those who aren't familiar, here's what Hawkeye looks like:
...Yeah, it's a tired argument. People willfully refuse to understand the difference between (female) sexualization and (male) power fantasies — both of which are by and for straight men.

Hawkeye's nice and all, but there's zero sexualization to his framing. Straight dudes grow up steeped in media that's created specifically for their every desire as consumers, so it's small wonder that so few of them have the awareness and/or willingness to recognize the stark difference in portrayal.

It's pretty telling of how long-term media exposure can affect perception. As someone who's attracted to men, if I were magically transported to an opposite land where male characters were consistently sexualized in the way female characters are... I wouldn't be able to take said media seriously. Like, time and place, y'all.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,871
This shit just depresses me. Here I am thinking the industry and gamers as a whole are maturing and moving past these pandering designs, and a mediocre Souls clone that’s only selling point is sexualized anime characters goes and sells over a million.
God this sucks.
Titty Souls ain't going anywhere. While I never intend to play it, this review explains the appeal of the game. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/j5yda4/code-vein-injects-anime-into-the-heart-of-dark-souls
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,347
This shit just depresses me. Here I am thinking the industry and gamers as a whole are maturing and moving past these pandering designs, and a mediocre Souls clone that’s only selling point is sexualized anime characters goes and sells over a million.
God this sucks.
That's not really it's only selling point. It's a pretty fun decent game. Honestly, some design choices i feel just hold it back. Curious how they will go for a sequel.
 

Rae

Member
Mar 7, 2019
193
The only aspect I rmb from C:V is that I really liked Louis and the areas are all destroyed cities in swamps.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,336
Ugh... Talking with Fire Emblem fans is such a pain sometimes. Every time I bring up criticisms about fanservice and sexually objectified women, someone will inevitably bring up the character Hawkeye, because shirtless buff dude. Dunno how you all have the patience to deal with the same arguments over and over gain.

For those who aren't familiar, here's what Hawkeye looks like:
Lol, even if that was a representation of fanservice it's still like...one example compared to the far larger count of women. Like, even if we include actual male fanservice like the beach DLC which actually does try and do that for the older male siblings, it's still skewed heavily in one direction.
 
...Yeah, it's a tired argument. People willfully refuse to understand the difference between (female) sexualization and (male) power fantasies — both of which are by and for straight men.

Hawkeye's nice and all, but there's zero sexualization to his framing. Straight dudes grow up steeped in media that's created specifically for their every desire as consumers, so it's small wonder that so few of them have the awareness and/or willingness to recognize the stark difference in portrayal.

It's pretty telling of how long-term media exposure can affect perception. As someone who's attracted to men, if I were magically transported to an opposite land where male characters were consistently sexualized in the way female characters are... I wouldn't be able to take said media seriously. Like, time and place, y'all.
Learning about the Hawkeye Initiative amused me since I'm pretty unfamiliar with Marvel stuff, and had hoped it was a Fire Emblem thing instead. Makes me wish I were a good enough artist to repeat it, but alas.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,931
This shit just depresses me. Here I am thinking the industry and gamers as a whole are maturing and moving past these pandering designs, and a mediocre Souls clone that’s only selling point is sexualized anime characters goes and sells over a million.
God this sucks.
I feel like framing it like this is more immature that what you think the audience is tbh
 
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Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,514
I am also unsure what makes the Witch of Izalith the most "pathetic" of the Lords, exactly.
She’s reduced to a little bug at the center of the Bed of Chaos that dies in only one hit.

But all the lords are pathetic. Gwyn is burnt to a mindless husk, Nito is cowering in the Tomb of the Giants, the Four Kings are traitors imprisoned in the abyss, and Seath is being trapped in both mind and body in crystal.

You could say the Witch has fallen the furthest, but they’re all failures in one way or another. At the height of her power the Witch was the most influential of the lords after Gwyn; after her fall she’s just a bug sitting at the center of the worst boss ever.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
625
I don't know anything about dark souls lore despite having played through all the games (most of them several times). I can't speak to lore but I can speak to mechanics of the games.

Bed of Chaos being I think arguably the toughest lord to actually fight while being only a tiny weak little bug is kind of neat.
Four kings are just a mmo style gear check fight (do you do X dps in X amount of time), Seth is a standard ass giant boss fight like you've done many times by then with the added concern of maybe getting petrified, Nito is an easy boss whose difficulty instead comes from the followers he has with him, and Gwyn the final boss of the game tests if you remember where the L2 button is on your controller. Seriously, the final boss of the game being so easy to parry is crazy. Demons Souls had Allant be a much harder fight just because you couldn't parry him (can't parry any bosses in demons mind you).
But the witch is still super powerful despite her state. When I replay Dark Souls I don't die to any of those bosses anymore. But I usually still die once or twice on Bed of Chaos.


If we want to talk about mechanically terrible boss fights against Women in soul's games, lets look at Maiden Astraea from Demons' Souls, who souls fan regularly love to praise for being so different, and for the narrative of it. But mechanically she is a woman who hides behind a literal knight in shining armor to protect her and then kills herself if you get past her big strong man.


I had to edit this post because I remembered the demons' souls maiden as letting you killer but, but upon double checking discovered she actually kills herself if you get past her guard.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,840
I don't know anything about dark souls lore despite having played through all the games (most of them several times). I can't speak to lore but I can speak to mechanics of the games.

Bed of Chaos being I think arguably the toughest lord to actually fight while being only a tiny weak little bug is kind of neat.
Four kings are just a mmo style gear check fight (do you do X dps in X amount of time), Seth is a standard ass giant boss fight like you've done many times by then with the added concern of maybe getting petrified, Nito is an easy boss whose difficulty instead comes from the followers he has with him, and Gwyn the final boss of the game tests if you remember where the L2 button is on your controller. Seriously, the final boss of the game being so easy to parry is crazy. Demons Souls had Allant be a much harder fight just because you couldn't parry him (can't parry any bosses in demons mind you).
But the witch is still super powerful despite her state. When I replay Dark Souls I don't die to any of those bosses anymore. But I usually still die once or twice on Bed of Chaos.


If we want to talk about mechanically terrible boss fights against Women in soul's games, lets look at Maiden Astraea from Demons' Souls, who souls fan regularly love to praise for being so different, and for the narrative of it. But mechanically she is a woman who hides behind a literal knight in shining armor to protect her and then kills herself if you get past her big strong man.


I had to edit this post because I remembered the demons' souls maiden as letting you killer but, but upon double checking discovered she actually kills herself if you get past her guard.
Probably worth noting that if you assault her while she's praying (and Garl's not dead) she casts a modified version God's Wrath on you and very likely kills you in one hit. She's not helpless, and her purpose as a saint is different from that of pretty much any other Soulsborne boss. I think her killing herself is is intended as an act of defiance against the player with the delivery of the line, "Take your precious demon soul."
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,931
This shit just depresses me. Here I am thinking the industry and gamers as a whole are maturing and moving past these pandering designs, and a mediocre Souls clone that’s only selling point is sexualized anime characters goes and sells over a million.
God this sucks.
To try and boil peoples purchases decisions to a single thing isn't good for discussion I feel. I bought it so I could make a cool goth anime black guy. Turns out there was a great video game under there. I'm not gonna defend all the woman designs, uh I can have a conversation about Virgil Killer Sweater part 2, that happens in the story, and all the women boss designs in that game. But I feel like the story of this games success is people were suprised at the game quality and praised it. And I think the games success is a separate conversation from that or rather it whether it should have succeeded for failed is different from what this games issues are.

I'm not trying to tell you how to feel, I'm not a woman and you might be. But as like a black dude, the ability to make a cool anime goth black anime protagonist is a rare treat. Its what sold me and a lot of my friends on the game, we desire more of this game because what it allows us to do. And that was our perspective on enjoying the game. And I think there is some value in that. You are also able to have a conversation about the womens designs, that doesn't suggest the value people found in this game is somehow incorrect.
 
To try and boil peoples purchases decisions to a single thing isn't good for discussion I feel. I bought it so I could make a cool goth anime black guy. Turns out there was a great video game under there. I'm not gonna defend all the woman designs, uh I can have a conversation about Virgil Killer Sweater part 2, that happens in the story, and all the women boss designs in that game. But I feel like the story of this games success is people were suprised at the game quality and praised it. And I think the games success is a separate conversation from that or rather it whether it should have succeeded for failed is different from what this games issues are.

I'm not trying to tell you how to feel, I'm not a woman and you might be. But as like a black dude, the ability to make a cool anime goth black anime protagonist is a rare treat. Its what sold me and a lot of my friends on the game, we desire more of this game because what it allows us to do. And that was our perspective on enjoying the game. And I think there is some value in that. You are also able to have a conversation about the womens designs, that doesn't suggest the value people found in this game is somehow incorrect.
It can be tough since usually the loudest voices for games like this are people who do use these games to push their toxic interest. You do make the case that you can still like this and other games but also being aware that it not perfect and don't pretend it isn't there.

I'm playing Tokyo mirage sessions and I like a lot of elements from the fun characters and how being in the entertainment industry helped them improve themselves and where they want to take it. However, certain elements like the lack of problems they bring up (stress from demanding management and entitlement of fans) and how they frame character development (Kiria development about being cute).
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,702
The English Wilderness
As someone who generally avoids fandom and online communities, I do find myself raising an awful lot of eyebrows at just how much hyperbole and absolutism gets thrown around this forum at times...

I bought Soul Calibur 6 the other day, then proceeded to recreate modern She-Ra for the story mode, to counter all the awful official characters :S
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
625
I bought Soul Calibur 6 the other day, then proceeded to recreate modern She-Ra for the story mode, to counter all the awful official characters :S
I remember getting really into the Soul Calibur 5, and Pyrrha ended up being my favourite character to play as. But oh man I hated her so much as a character, her audio design mostly. Terrible anime voice, constantly apologizing for hurting her opponent, screaming in fear as she attacks.

The greatest strength of soul calibur is that ability to say "I like the way this character plays but no, I am not playing that character" and just putting their moveset on a custom character.

Probably worth noting that if you assault her while she's praying (and Garl's not dead) she casts a modified version God's Wrath on you and very likely kills you in one hit. She's not helpless, and her purpose as a saint is different from that of pretty much any other Soulsborne boss. I think her killing herself is is intended as an act of defiance against the player with the delivery of the line, "Take your precious demon soul."
I actually didn't know she fought back if you didn't kill Garl yet, as I've always just killed him first. I agree its supposed to be an act of defiance. Its just an unfortunate choice in a video game where there are very few women, and none of the ones who are there ever fight at all, for the boss who is a woman to also kill herself after the man protecting her dies.
If this was a later souls game, and like, Astraea killed herself in bloodborne with there being other fights against women like Lady Maria, Vicar Amelia, Rom, The Witch of Hemwick, etc. I'd feel a lot better about it. Or at least Lady Maria and the Witch if you don't count the Monstrous fights who were women.
 
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Morrigan

Arrogant Smirk
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
14,121
Its just an unfortunate choice in a video game where there are very few women, and none of the ones who are there ever fight at all
???
Executioner Miralda, Mephistopheles, Selen Vinland, the Meat Cleaver BP... even NPCs like Yuria will cast Firestorm on your ass if you attack her apparently :P

And uh, while Rom is female, I wouldn't call her a "woman"...
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
625
???
Executioner Miralda, Mephistopheles, Selen Vinland, the Meat Cleaver BP... even NPCs like Yuria will cast Firestorm on your ass if you attack her apparently :P

And uh, while Rom is female, I wouldn't call her a "woman"...
I guess I'm just not remembering Demons' very well, though I wouldn't count the cleaver black phantom.
Yuria also falls into that wierd problem that every souls npc falls into, Men and Women, where if you attack them they are powerful, and she knows all this deadly magic, but she is also completely helpless waiting to be rescued from easy enemies. I definitely did forget about Miralda and selene though.

I think we are hitting on a point here though where the women, excluding Miralda, only fight as a function of not letting themselves die if the pc goes out of their way to attack them. Across a normal playthrough you will never see any of them fight. Is selene found fighting monsters? I honestly don't remember, she's out in the plague swamp area right.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,840
I guess I'm just not remembering Demons' very well, though I wouldn't count the cleaver black phantom.
Yuria also falls into that wierd problem that every souls npc falls into, Men and Women, where if you attack them they are powerful, and she knows all this deadly magic, but she is also completely helpless waiting to be rescued from easy enemies. I definitely did forget about Miralda and selene though.

I think we are hitting on a point here though where the women, excluding Miralda, only fight as a function of not letting themselves die if the pc goes out of their way to attack them. Across a normal playthrough you will never see any of them fight. Is selene found fighting monsters? I honestly don't remember, she's out in the plague swamp area right.
Well, the world tendency system basically allows most NPCs to be good or bad depending on your world tendency. In black world tendency Selen will attack you on sight (as will most NPCs affected by world tendency). In white world tendency she's an NPC you can talk to and is looking for her brother. In white world tendency most men NPCs won't attack you either, but in black that is flipped, just like for the women.

Regardless, if you attack NPCs they'll defend themselves in Demon's Souls. I think the NPCs being passive is more just a product of them being NPCs. Most of the men NPCs you come across act pretty similar to the women (in terms of behavior regarding attacking / defending). Astraea's the only one being actively defended, but again, has to do with her duty (and Garl's), not that she can't defend herself.
 

sqwarlock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,431
Irvine, CA
I really wish I could get into the Code:Vein gameplay more cause I liked how femme I could make a male character look. For whatever reason it never clicked in the time I put into the demo.
 

Choppasmith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,883
Beaumont, CA
Please refresh my memory, is there a good source that debates the whole "Why is sexualization so bad? Why don't people get mad about violence?" Could've sworn someone had a good article explaining what's wrong with the former more than the latter (outside the whole whataboutism of course).

Asking for a friend and by friend I mean, someone online doing the whole "wHaT aBoUt ViOlEnCe?" argument.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,871
The latest key visual for FFVII Remake really shows that Tifa's new design is still lacking. Small body fat percentage except for her breasts and ridiculous waistline.
 

grandjedi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,670
I haven't gone back to compare, but I'm starting to wonder if Square gave into the whining and changed Tifa's character design to be more sexual. I definitely don't remember it looking that bad on reveal.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,429
I haven't gone back to compare, but I'm starting to wonder if Square gave into the whining and changed Tifa's character design to be more sexual. I definitely don't remember it looking that bad on reveal.
Pretty sure it's been the same the whole time, it's why all the complaining was absurd. This is from the reveal trailer.



Don't feel like taking a billion other pics of other angles and moments but yeah nothing changed design wise
 
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Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
2,458
That appears to be Byleth bursting at the seams of the child-sized Sothis’ clothing.
 

grandjedi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,670
Pretty sure it's been the same the whole time, it's why all the complaining was absurd. This is from the reveal trailer.



Don't feel like taking a billion other pics of other angles and moments but yeah nothing changed design wise
Well she's always been comedically busty. Comparing the two images, I think what makes the new image worse is the fact that Tifa's shirt has a more "boob sock" thing going for it. Which is, of course, ridiculous

Friend of mine posted this on Twitter and what the fuck is this outfit. (Also who is this character, I don't know modern Fire Emblem things)
That's Byleth. The mute main character wearing the DLC costume of the literal God. Except the literal God is stuck in a more child like body, hence the revealing nature here (as all Fire Emblem Three Houses models only come in two forms: busty and flat.... Which sounds worse than it is, as it's more due to the shitty dynasty warriors engine the game runs on). That said, it doesn't excuse the fact that male Byleth isn't as revealing in the same clothes because the game is horrible about everything regarding female Byleth despite being decent in most other places.