Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,012
Even with video games, there's a portion of the Japanese industry who are going through some effort to do better in recent years, especially with big, more internationally oriented IPs. Like, Square Enix could've done WAY WORSE with Tifa in FFVII's remake (though there's still room for improvement) but made a conscious decision to not sex-doll her up to the 100th degree like they did with Cidney in FFXV, and Capcom has done well with the (default) designs of female characters in the more recent Resident Evil games.

Unfortunately this approach doesn't quite reach all of their IPs yet, but even at its worst something like REMake 2 doesn't get as bad as tribal-outfit-Sheva (unless I've missed some piece of DLC/optional content). I hope that with the suprisingly massive international success of Monster Hunter World, maybe they'll apply some of that REmake female character design-logic to the next Monster Hunter as well, as they look to repeat/expand on the franchises newfound western success.
 
Even with video games, there's a portion of the Japanese industry who are going through some effort to do better in recent years, especially with big, more internationally oriented IPs. Like, Square Enix could've done WAY WORSE with Tifa in FFVII's remake (though there's still room for improvement) but made a conscious decision to not sex-doll her up to the 100th degree like they did with Cidney in FFXV, and Capcom has done well with the (default) designs of female characters in the more recent Resident Evil games.

Unfortunately this approach doesn't quite reach all of their IPs yet, but even at its worst something like REMake 2 doesn't get as bad as tribal-outfit-Sheva (unless I've missed some piece of DLC/optional content). I hope that with the suprisingly massive international success of Monster Hunter World, maybe they'll apply some of that REmake female character design-logic to the next Monster Hunter as well, as they look to repeat/expand on the franchises newfound western success.
It hard to tell at what level of the company make those choices and how much of a pull certain people have. I will argue Persona has strong female characters but there times they have scenes that feel out of place with the characters position (Royal has a problematic moment with the new female character).
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,012
It hard to tell at what level of the company make those choices and how much of a pull certain people have. I will argue Persona has strong female characters but there times they have scenes that feel out of place with the characters position (Royal has a problematic moment with the new female character).
Well, at least with Tifa, there seems to have been someone, or more than one person, at SQEX who was/were all "yo, guys, we have to take a careful approach with Tifa in this remake that we are making for a more worldwide audience" and made them take the current approach that is about as tasteful a look as Tifa can probably have with a design this faithful to her OG one.

But sure, I do think that there are also a lot of individual creators who'll unfortunately not get the memo who'll continue pushing for crappy female character designs even when (a part of) the rest of the company is improving. Like, even if Tifa is ok, I doubt Yoko Taro will change and we'll have our share of panty shots, cleavage and overt objectification during dramatic death scenes in Nier 3/Drakengard 4/whatever.
 

Bit_Reactor

Member
Apr 9, 2019
2,884

Looks like her shoulder pads were stuffed elsewhere in her new art.
I actually hate the art direction for the remake and will be using the classic art. Between Fire Emblem and other old games I miss shoulder pads and fun/weird silhouettes.

It's hilarious to think Urushihara had the tame designs when he's usually known for really erotic and hentai drawings.
Something I noticed with Fate and stuff too. They were tamer when they were straight up banging but now we can't have that so we just have to have everyone running around in lingerie I guess haha
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,080
Fate had such awesome designs before it went full gacha. I will forever love F/SN Rider for example. She was incredible looking in both her servant and casual outfits without having to show a ton of skin.
 

hat_hair

Member
Oct 26, 2017
744
Something I noticed with Fate and stuff too. They were tamer when they were straight up banging but now we can't have that so we just have to have everyone running around in lingerie I guess haha
It feels like over the years it's become widely accepted that fans want to imagine having sex with characters, but don't want to imagine those characters having sex themselves.
So now everyone has to be both:
a) an innocent virgin
b) sexually available

It was weirdly refreshing in In/Spectre this season where a woman just straight up admits to having had sex (even if it used some very unnatural exposition).
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,380
It feels like over the years it's become widely accepted that fans want to imagine having sex with characters, but don't want to imagine those characters having sex themselves.
So now everyone has to be both:
a) an innocent virgin
b) sexually available

It was weirdly refreshing in In/Spectre this season where a woman just straight up admits to having had sex (even if it used some very unnatural exposition).
I mean that's literally the japanese pop idol scenario right now.

Half the country lusts over you, but don't you dare get a boyfriend or else your career is over because "the illusion has been broken".
 

Bit_Reactor

Member
Apr 9, 2019
2,884
It feels like over the years it's become widely accepted that fans want to imagine having sex with characters, but don't want to imagine those characters having sex themselves.
So now everyone has to be both:
a) an innocent virgin
b) sexually available

It was weirdly refreshing in In/Spectre this season where a woman just straight up admits to having had sex (even if it used some very unnatural exposition).
That's what's weird to me. It feels like Mass Effect was as close as (I personally think) we got to having people who fucked but also had character. Yes the path "to the fucking" was kind of paint by numbers but I don't think I've spoken to anyone who lusts/loves the characters for their physical attributes over their personality traits. Hell people like myself loved Tali and we never even saw her face (until they retconned it to just be "Human but with some junk on their faces"). Ever since then it's like the potential for shippers/shipping wars, player pandering, and other things have become so prevalent that people are downright afraid to just commit to relationship writing unless it's at the VERY end of a story or game. It's really a shame because I feel some of the most untapped writing potential out there is established relationships between characters and how those relationships persist through things in fantasy/scifi settings or even normal scenarios.

It's a shame that the banter in Mass Effect is the furthest I felt we got in that regard (with contextual triggers and dialogue changes depending on who did whom and when), and since I don't feel any game has picked up the mantle for romantic writing. Dragon Age Inquisition wasn't "terrible" in this regard, with Iron bull and Dorian being highlights, especially if they romance each other, but it just feels like everyone is just completely against committing to sexual or romantic tension/relationships between characters.

I mean that's literally the japanese pop idol scenario right now.

Half the country lusts over you, but don't you dare get a boyfriend or else your career is over because "the illusion has been broken".
You see that in a lot of regards in cosplay/youtube/twitch etc as well. People will lose whole followings based on it. I had dated a cosplayer when I was younger and was super bitter about the fact that she never admitted to dating me while we were together, and even though I don't agree with the decision, I can see why some wouldn't. I've seen models and other content creators get unfollowed/lose support/get shit on for the person they choose to date, so I can see why this persists, and hate that it's come to that.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,719
The English Wilderness
TBF women in general get sidelined when they're no longer "on the market". One minute you're invited to all the parties and social gatherings, the next it's like you no longer exist.

But yeah, game devs certainly seem petrified of alienating certain vocal fanbases, both those who lust after fictional characters, and those who play matchmaker with them.

When it comes to appeasing other communities, though...
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,017
But yeah, game devs certainly seem petrified of alienating certain vocal fanbases, both those who lust after fictional characters, and those who play matchmaker with them.
Indeed. I recall an interview with an ex-SNK dev that was translated by shmuplations. http://shmuplations.com/snkgoldenage/

At one point, the dev mentions that their team was forced by management to ensure that female characters (particularly NPCs/enemies) were scantily-clad. This was back during the late 80s & early 90s, but I think the issue has become far more prevalent today, particularly among more hardcore genres like shmups & dungeon crawlers. Those kinds of games don't get any mainstream success, so devs are forced to appeal to the otaku market to achieve any semblance of sustainability. Then again, even far more successful games aren't immune to the issue. From Fire Emblem to the Gacha industry, it's everywhere.

One step forward, two steps back. It's always the same story for female characters in video games.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,349
Even with video games, there's a portion of the Japanese industry who are going through some effort to do better in recent years, especially with big, more internationally oriented IPs. Like, Square Enix could've done WAY WORSE with Tifa in FFVII's remake (though there's still room for improvement) but made a conscious decision to not sex-doll her up to the 100th degree like they did with Cidney in FFXV, and Capcom has done well with the (default) designs of female characters in the more recent Resident Evil games.

Unfortunately this approach doesn't quite reach all of their IPs yet, but even at its worst something like REMake 2 doesn't get as bad as tribal-outfit-Sheva (unless I've missed some piece of DLC/optional content). I hope that with the suprisingly massive international success of Monster Hunter World, maybe they'll apply some of that REmake female character design-logic to the next Monster Hunter as well, as they look to repeat/expand on the franchises newfound western success.
It hard to tell at what level of the company make those choices and how much of a pull certain people have. I will argue Persona has strong female characters but there times they have scenes that feel out of place with the characters position (Royal has a problematic moment with the new female character).
Years ago (pre-RE7) there was some kind of investor meeting where Capcom actually laid out that it understands pretty well the international appeal of the Resident Evil games. I think they said the main appeal in Japan was actually the "fashionable characters" or something like that, while in the west it was the horror element, and they felt they had to balance that.

There was a period somewhere around Revelations 1 where RE started to get a bit otaku-bait-ish -- you can definitely see it in the female character designs of that game, but since RE7 they seem to have pulled back all the way.

With the PS1 games RE started as sort of just Capcom's take on cheesy Japanese and American horror movies, then somewhere around Code Veronica and RE0 things started to feel a bit like a late 90's anime. RE4 pivoted way more towards the cheesy American movie direction and basically became the video game version of that movie Commando. I think 5 and the Rev games is where RE got closest to otaku-bait but by RE6 it had actually already started to steer back towards just "action movie", and now with 7 and the remakes RE feels like it's circled all the way back to channeling horror B-movies like the PS1 games did.

A unique thing about the RE games though is it allowed all the characters to age in real time from the late 90's to today. Originally many of those characters felt like they were a bit too young to be doing what they were doing with the level of experience they supposedly had, but now the series has allowed some of its female characters to go over age 30 without the world ending. It's part of the reason fans are a bit apprehensive about Jill appearing in another actual new game. She's 24 in RE1-3, and it's been over 20 years since then.
 

SOLDIER

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,989

Any new outrage posts from the usual places about how they still aren’t big enough? I could use a good laugh.

Honestly this is a much more modest look than I thought compared to the original dress. A little bummed that this more or less debunks then scar theory, but otherwise it’s still a relief Square didn’t let 20+ years of wildly disproportioned fan-art influence the design.
 

Bit_Reactor

Member
Apr 9, 2019
2,884

Any new outrage posts from the usual places about how they still aren’t big enough? I could use a good laugh.

Honestly this is a much more modest look than I thought compared to the original dress. A little bummed that this more or less debunks then scar theory, but otherwise it’s still a relief Square didn’t let 20+ years of wildly disproportioned fan-art influence the design.
It will forever irk me that they never followed through on giving Tifa (even a subtle) scar from where Sephiroth slashed her.

I kept hoping it would be revealed but they keep showing more skin and it's nowhere to be found. Shame.
 

SOLDIER

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,989
It will forever irk me that they never followed through on giving Tifa (even a subtle) scar from where Sephiroth slashed her.

I kept hoping it would be revealed but they keep showing more skin and it's nowhere to be found. Shame.
It could still be in the area below the cleavage and above the midriff.

I just worry they’ll retcon it that she was never actually slashed and was just hit really hard with the flat part of his blade.That would be super lame.
 

Bit_Reactor

Member
Apr 9, 2019
2,884
It could still be in the area below the cleavage and above the midriff.

I just worry they’ll retcon it that she was never actually slashed and was just hit really hard with the flat part of his blade.That would be super lame.
I mean...practically her whole stomach is shown and now her whole cleavage/collar bone area is shown. If it IS there it's going to be dainty as hell and hardly worth showing at that point or even having if they don't outright show it.

But at this point it's low on my list of gripes about the game so it's whatevs.
 

arcadepc

Member
Dec 28, 2019
387
That would be pretty good. Modern Netherrealm has come a long way from MK9's designs. They still give almost every female character high heels, but that's probably my biggest complaint. I really wish other fighting games would be like them, and not depend on the fanservice money that almost every other fighting franchise has done.
With the leaps in technology compared to the 90s, MK creators wanted to push everything to the extreme. It was not just the female character designs but also the violence which was far above anything in MK1-4. Though only MK1 was serious in fatalities, after MK2 it swayed to parody side. Same with MK9, people were appalled by the violence but with MKX and 11 they were used to it and look it more as a parody and fun. Difference is that female character sexualisation was never the main point in 90s MK games, as opposed to the violence and fatalities. Models were based on real digitized actors so proportions and fanservice was to be help to a bare minimum so as not to expose the real actors behind it. No such issue with CGI models, hence the liberties with the character designs In that sense, MK went truly back to its roots.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,965
With the leaps in technology compared to the 90s, MK creators wanted to push everything to the extreme. It was not just the female character designs but also the violence which was far above anything in MK1-4. Though only MK1 was serious in fatalities, after MK2 it swayed to parody side. Same with MK9, people were appalled by the violence but with MKX and 11 they were used to it and look it more as a parody and fun. Difference is that female character sexualisation was never the main point in 90s MK games, as opposed to the violence and fatalities. Models were based on real digitized actors so proportions and fanservice was to be help to a bare minimum so as not to expose the real actors behind it. No such issue with CGI models, hence the liberties with the character designs In that sense, MK went truly back to its roots.
That makes a lot of sense. I can see how their design philosophy would move towards the super fanservice of the PS2-PS3 era of games. What shocks me is that they course corrected. I don't know if they got a lot of criticism for MK9 that they took to heart, or if new hires just naturally moved away from those kinds of designs, or if they just felt they couldn't have that much sexualization with the level of violence in their games. I'm just so happy to see at least one developer move away from fanservice, and not overload their DLC with skimpy outfits to make a cheap buck.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,080
They did add a bit of t&a back in the day between mk2 and ultimate 3, but it’s no where near as blatant as mk9.

rolling it back made for some cool designs in mk11. I love the revamped skarlet and katana designs.
 

arcadepc

Member
Dec 28, 2019
387
That makes a lot of sense. I can see how their design philosophy would move towards the super fanservice of the PS2-PS3 era of games. What shocks me is that they course corrected. I don't know if they got a lot of criticism for MK9 that they took to heart, or if new hires just naturally moved away from those kinds of designs, or if they just felt they couldn't have that much sexualization with the level of violence in their games. I'm just so happy to see at least one developer move away from fanservice, and not overload their DLC with skimpy outfits to make a cheap buck.
I think it also mattered that WB took charge and they have a department that cares for these sort of issues during production, not only in their video games but also their comics, movies, tv series etc. During MK 9 development WB were still in the process of acquisition of Midway Chicago, so no time to take care of such details.
 
Jan 11, 2018
5,114
Generally speaking I think using the likeness of real people involves a lot more respect and care than dealing with character models created from scratch. Unless you're Kojima.

But Mortal Kombat feels like a solid example of this. During the "klassic" era most costumes were created from cheap material and had a very campy feel to them, like a mixture of 80's aerobics and wrestling costumes. And most of the people who portrayed these characters were martial artists and fitness models.

As soon as the developers had the freedom to create detailed enough character models from scratch they no longer had to ask real people to pose in specific outfits, nor did they have to consider realistic body proportions. I would assume most of the dev team consisted of young and/or immature men at the time.

In the past ten years they've not only returned to basing characters on real actors again but there's a lot more diversity in the Western games industry in general, but definitely at NRS. There was that one guy who was butthurt for not being able to give Black Canary some skimpy outfit for Injustice 2 and voiced his disappointment on social media. I'm sure that was a combination of the rest of the dev team saying no due to finally having grown up (probably have wives and daughters too) and also become more diverse, as well as DC not allowing it.

Meanwhile, Japan seems to be regressing in regards to this issue... almost as if they're doubling down on their anime tiddies as a counter reaction to the progress that's happening in the West. I've seen a few Japanese devs talk about "Western sensibility" when discussing toned down fan service for Western releases of their games, but it usually boils down to the false dichotomy of being accepting of sex vs. violence.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,965
What I hate about the argument that western games have become prudish compared to the sexuality found in some JRPGs is that it feels like such a very rigid view of sexuality. Like you are either in chainmail bikinis or you are a prude. There is no acknowledgement that a character can be sexy through their actions or their characterizations. It just feels like such a lazy way to look at sexuality.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,719
The English Wilderness
What I hate about the argument that western games have become prudish compared to the sexuality found in some JRPGs is that it feels like such a very rigid view of sexuality. Like you are either in chainmail bikinis or you are a prude. There is no acknowledgement that a character can be sexy through their actions or their characterizations. It just feels like such a lazy way to look at sexuality.
It's a very twelve-year-old boy's take on sexuality, which I think says everything.
 

¡ B 0 0 P !

Member
Apr 4, 2019
2,029
Greater Toronto Area
What I hate about the argument that western games have become prudish compared to the sexuality found in some JRPGs is that it feels like such a very rigid view of sexuality. Like you are either in chainmail bikinis or you are a prude. There is no acknowledgement that a character can be sexy through their actions or their characterizations. It just feels like such a lazy way to look at sexuality.
The thing is why does a stereotypical fantasy RPG or your average fighting game need to be sexualized? It's not like most of these games have explicit sexual content in them. The 'sex' in them is nothing but women character design. Most of the time the designs are illogical or off-putting. Most of the games would play the same regardless of character design.

If gamers want sex why not just play a porn/romance game?
 
Jan 11, 2018
5,114
What I hate about the argument that western games have become prudish compared to the sexuality found in some JRPGs is that it feels like such a very rigid view of sexuality. Like you are either in chainmail bikinis or you are a prude. There is no acknowledgement that a character can be sexy through their actions or their characterizations. It just feels like such a lazy way to look at sexuality.
Not to mention it's always so one-sided. It's men discussing how they want to objectify women. I've already read comments from people saying the Honey Bee Inn scene from the latest FFVII trailer where Cloud is dancing with the male bee makes them "uncomfortable". And of course, Square Enix went out of their way to censor Wol from Mobius because a lot of male gamers felt "uncomfortable" by how much skin he was showing by default. So clearly, it's not that Japan is more open to sexualisation. Just more open to objectifying female characters, and they often also look and/or behave like they're way too young but that's another can of worms altogether.
 

Bit_Reactor

Member
Apr 9, 2019
2,884
If gamers want sex why not just play a porn/romance game?
Honestly I'd love to a "real" take on a video game that actually indulges in sex instead of skirting around it with fanservice and stuff, but there is a -99% chance of any of them happening with mechanics that are remotely engaging and/or not just visual novels lol.

It may make me sound bad but I'd be much more interested in seeing a game stop dodging around the topic and just go into it and let anyone live out their fantasies, including LGBTQ, but I know that's a ridiculous ask lol
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,965
The thing is why does a stereotypical fantasy RPG or your average fighting game need to be sexualized? It's not like most of these games have explicit sexual content in them. The 'sex' in them is nothing but women character design. Most of the time the designs are illogical or off-putting. Most of the games would play the same regardless of character design.

If gamers want sex why not just play a porn/romance game?
This is a fair point. Most games are rated Teen, and the romance is usually really chaste. So the extreme sexualization feels out of place. The fact that the sexualization is so sided between genders only exacerbates this problem. It creates this weird separation between how the character is written versus how they are presented.

In fighting games it's a lot worse because there are so many different body types for the male characters, and it only highlights how limited the female designs are.
 

litebrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,949
The thing is why does a stereotypical fantasy RPG or your average fighting game need to be sexualized? It's not like most of these games have explicit sexual content in them. The 'sex' in them is nothing but women character design. Most of the time the designs are illogical or off-putting. Most of the games would play the same regardless of character design.

If gamers want sex why not just play a porn/romance game?
They don't necessarily want sex but want to look at sexy women or play as them in a game. It was such a normal thing in media for a long time, that I honestly didn't think anything about it until I got older and was made more conscious about it.

Then you would start to see it everywhere and cringe. LOL
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
156
I duno how to explain it, but I feel a lot of the examples perfect for this topic that come frome anime games is almost like a meme.

Like if you wanted reddit to play your game, so you just throw in "wacky memes" just to get their sales. Except in this case, it's just "badly over sexualised girl" just being throw in solely for the hardcore otaku and "I'm literally crying because they censored one inch of a character"

I dunno how to best put it, but it just feels empty and shallow with no purpose other than being a marketing gimmick. I think it's made worse when a lot of these games aren't exactly quality.

Honestly, I just think it's best to get rid of all this content. Look at God of war PS4. We went from nudity and threesome mini games to none and it was one of the best games of the year still. Surely we could have at least some of these anime games being really good games without the need for molestiation, stripper outfits and gross treatment of underage girls. It just doesn't seem to have any point, other than a few thousand lonely young guys scared of porn or watching Netflix or whatever.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,841
I duno how to explain it, but I feel a lot of the examples perfect for this topic that come frome anime games is almost like a meme.

Like if you wanted reddit to play your game, so you just throw in "wacky memes" just to get their sales. Except in this case, it's just "badly over sexualised girl" just being throw in solely for the hardcore otaku and "I'm literally crying because they censored one inch of a character"

I dunno how to best put it, but it just feels empty and shallow with no purpose other than being a marketing gimmick. I think it's made worse when a lot of these games aren't exactly quality.

Honestly, I just think it's best to get rid of all this content. Look at God of war PS4. We went from nudity and threesome mini games to none and it was one of the best games of the year still. Surely we could have at least some of these anime games being really good games without the need for molestiation, stripper outfits and gross treatment of underage girls. It just doesn't seem to have any point, other than a few thousand lonely young guys scared of porn or watching Netflix or whatever.
I'm sort of under the impression that most Japanese devs wouldn't even know how to make a game like that. Aside companies like From Software (which still took some time to get to where they are), they simply don't hire artists and directors who have that mindset. Shigenori Soejima tried this, it seems like multiple times, and Hashino (piece of shit that he is) shut him down. The idea of a non-sexualized woman in media just doesn't process for them, and that's probably what happens at a lot of game devs in Japan. As such, it becomes a reinforcing circle. Public perception illustrates that Japanese games are for horny men, and as horny men continue to fill the ranks, it becomes a race to the bottom. Especially true as many societies and cultures have seen a recent backlash against progressivism (and Japan wasn't very progressive to begin with).
 

Astartes

Avenger
Nov 12, 2017
2,279
Terra
Ive been playing Dark Souls Remastered for the first time and all women character designs have been excellent so far except for Gwynevere.



But I do love the Anor Londo FireKeepers armor especially.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,868
Ive been playing Dark Souls Remastered for the first time and all women character designs have been excellent so far except for Gwynevere.
There's a funny story behind that.

Miyazaki: Well, the truth is, I just wanted to make a really big woman. I think it was a Fujiko F. Fujio manga, (Yasuragi no Yakata, literally Tranqil Mansion), there was a company president who joins an exclusive club to escape his stressful work life, and there's a giant woman who takes care of the club members, almost like a mother… don't you think that's just a perfect situation? A giant, considerate, caring woman. The kind we all lost when we grew up, that's what I wanted to make. Originally I also wanted to put a mouth in the palm of her hand, and we made all of the animations, but it didn't make it into the final game. Talking of glamour, her breasts are nothing to do with me, they happened without my knowledge. It's all the artist's fault. I think I mentioned it earlier but I always seek a certain refinement in all my designs.

Waragai: Really? Haha

Miyazaki: Yes, But the artist had such a happy look on his face that I didn't have the heart to stop him.
Source: https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/7force/blog/dark-souls-design-works-translation-npcs-and-monst/98089/
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,756
Madrid
Thank you, this is absolutely fantastic, and frankly makes a lot of sense. Based Miyazaki. <3

I think that Gwynevere kind of works in Dark Souls. Precisely because of how exaggerated her maternal features are and how kind and welcoming she behaves, she becomes exceedingly jarring in a world that is everything but. Of course, there's a reason for that, but even before the player learns about it, she sticks like a sore thumb and in many senses is more surreal than many of the downright nightmarish things you see in the rest of the game.

That’s hilarious. I’m happy that she didn’t get mouth hands though, sounds creepy.
I for one am super bummed she didn't get these, it would have made her design so memorable!
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
156
I'm sort of under the impression that most Japanese devs wouldn't even know how to make a game like that. Aside companies like From Software (which still took some time to get to where they are), they simply don't hire artists and directors who have that mindset. Shigenori Soejima tried this, it seems like multiple times, and Hashino (piece of shit that he is) shut him down. The idea of a non-sexualized woman in media just doesn't process for them, and that's probably what happens at a lot of game devs in Japan. As such, it becomes a reinforcing circle. Public perception illustrates that Japanese games are for horny men, and as horny men continue to fill the ranks, it becomes a race to the bottom. Especially true as many societies and cultures have seen a recent backlash against progressivism (and Japan wasn't very progressive to begin with).
I always assumed they could avoid that problem if they started from the top. Like how Nintendo (in house) doesn't have this issue, while as soon as they let monolith soft and intelligent systems be in control, we get "waifus"

I would hope that if some of the biggest Japanese companies stopped doing this, it could encourage more to follow. But I'm jaded and I just assume that gust and Nippon ichi would make more games. it does seem like at least parts of Sony and Nintendo are trying though, so it might not be impossible to see improvement
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
884
I always assumed they could avoid that problem if they started from the top. Like how Nintendo (in house) doesn't have this issue, while as soon as they let monolith soft and intelligent systems be in control, we get "waifus"

I would hope that if some of the biggest Japanese companies stopped doing this, it could encourage more to follow. But I'm jaded and I just assume that gust and Nippon ichi would make more games. it does seem like at least parts of Sony and Nintendo are trying though, so it might not be impossible to see improvement
It's simply not going to happen until either Japanese consumers change their spending patterns or social conscience becomes a thing in Japan. Right now, so much of the purchasing power lies with the otaku that games are going to continue to bend over backwards for them. Hell, the otaku are so prevalent right now that a lot of the people making the games are otaku themselves so we're very far away from seeing much improvement. As for the political front, Japan is denying that a ton of women were made into sex slaves and mass-raped so hard that they're in a major trade war with South Korea right now. It's so bad right now that it wouldn't be unfair to state that Japan's political identity is tied to denying the rights of women.
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
156
It's simply not going to happen until either Japanese consumers change their spending patterns or social conscience becomes a thing in Japan. Right now, so much of the purchasing power lies with the otaku that games are going to continue to bend over backwards for them. Hell, the otaku are so prevalent right now that a lot of the people making the games are otaku themselves so we're very far away from seeing much improvement. As for the political front, Japan is denying that a ton of women were made into sex slaves and mass-raped so hard that they're in a major trade war with South Korea right now. It's so bad right now that it wouldn't be unfair to state that Japan's political identity is tied to denying the rights of women.
Unfortunately, that means there isn't much we can do. I'm not saying don't shine a light on it, but rather its most effective right now to just not buy games that do this kind of thing?

Maybe the next generation of the younger Japanese gamers will have a different attitude?
 
Oct 28, 2017
851
Unfortunately, that means there isn't much we can do. I'm not saying don't shine a light on it, but rather its most effective right now to just not buy games that do this kind of thing?

Maybe the next generation of the younger Japanese gamers will have a different attitude?
Like all forms of bigotry, sexism doesn't "die off" when there's a generational turnover. Let's make a better world for women now.

"Vote with your wallet" was admirably tackled by the OP, so read it.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
884
Unfortunately, that means there isn't much we can do. I'm not saying don't shine a light on it, but rather its most effective right now to just not buy games that do this kind of thing?

Maybe the next generation of the younger Japanese gamers will have a different attitude?
The very opposite is likely. Japanese youngsters are mostly likely drawn into the kinds of entertainment designed for them: anime, manga, and light novels. Right now these media are heavily targeting otaku tastes because, again, these are the people actually buying the product. Realistically the only way for there to be any change in Japan is for social conscience to gain a foothold, but there's no sign that this will happen and the trends are pointing in the opposite direction. Things would be different if Japan was receptive to social ideas from other countries, but it's not (read up on Japanese whaling if you want to be depressed) so any change will have to stem from internal sources.

The best thing to do is to just not buy the products that disturb you but these tend not to be horribly dependent on sales outside of Japan so the effect is going to be limited.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,380
Miyazaki: Yes, But the artist had such a happy look on his face that I didn't have the heart to stop him.
I feel like this statement encapsulates so much of video game art design.

"Sir, he drew the enormous breasts again, but his puppydog eyes...we couldn't bare to tell him to change it"
::sigh:: "Just ship the fucking thing, whatever."
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
156
Like all forms of bigotry, sexism doesn't "die off" when there's a generational turnover. Let's make a better world for women now.

"Vote with your wallet" was admirably tackled by the OP, so read it.
Oh yeah, I already vote with my wallet and yeah I read it properly now, I just wonder specific with Japan. With the issues facing an aging population, it just makes me wonder if that would impact further generations. Maybe an increased birth rate and such leads to less "reliance" on this content?

The very opposite is likely. Japanese youngsters are mostly likely drawn into the kinds of entertainment designed for them: anime, manga, and light novels. Right now these media are heavily targeting otaku tastes because, again, these are the people actually buying the product. Realistically the only way for there to be any change in Japan is for social conscience to gain a foothold, but there's no sign that this will happen and the trends are pointing in the opposite direction. Things would be different if Japan was receptive to social ideas from other countries, but it's not (read up on Japanese whaling if you want to be depressed) so any change will have to stem from internal sources.

The best thing to do is to just not buy the products that disturb you but these tend not to be horribly dependent on sales outside of Japan so the effect is going to be limited.
Yeah I understand, I just wonder if a lot of these guys are unlikely to have kids and teach them bad values, a future generation might think better of this stuf. At least ideally anyway.

The current otaku generation seems like it's at a peak of "worst way of thinking on this subject", so I don't expect change from them. Just seems like it should get better instead of worse. Hopefully.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,921
I feel like this statement encapsulates so much of video game art design.

"Sir, he drew the enormous breasts again, but his puppydog eyes...we couldn't bare to tell him to change it"
::sigh:: "Just ship the fucking thing, whatever."
I see that scenario and mindset being the case for the vast majority of anime productions.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,442
Well, for the last decade or two it appears to be a combination of that and a god awful source material.
Yep

Please let Eizoken be the start of a good woman character design trend!
Please let Eizoken be the start of a good woman character design trend!
Please let Eizoken be the start of a good woman character design trend!


If I say it enough times maybe it will become true! The funny thing is that Eizoken doesn't do much to diversify character designs but even that little change is a breath of fresh air compared to...like everything else.