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When a UHD Blu Ray only has HDR10 Support while the streaming version has Dolby. Does it bother you?

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,636
USA
That’s strange and not great. Though I’m digital only as is so I don’t personally care.
 
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TaySan

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
6,530
Can you really tell the difference?
Admittedly it's not a gigantic difference, but Dolby really helps OLED TV's that aren't capable of reaching 1000+ nits for HDR and when you are already paying a premium for Disney 4K(30+ a pop) it's simply inexcusable to not have it included when you have it on your streaming service.
 

Daingurse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,864
AZ
I got a Samsung TV, and my UHD player doesn't even support Dolby Vision anyway. So no, doesn't bother me.
 

NESpowerhouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,290
Virginia
Admittedly it's not a gigantic difference, but Dolby really helps OLED TV's that aren't capable of reaching 1000+ nits for HDR and when you are already paying a premium for Disney 4K(30+ a pop) it's simply inexcusable to not have it included when you have it on your streaming service.
Okay, yeah I can see how it can be pretty baffling, but I guess it's not something that I would personally lose sleep over.
 

jayvo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
240
I have a 65" OLED that has HDR and Dolby Vision capabilities. On 4K blu-rays that have both options, I can tell a significant difference between the two. If HDR is the only option, then I take it cause it's still great and I have no other choice. But Dolby Vision on a 4K disc is incredible. I don't compare HDR / Dolby Vision disc to digital so can't comment.
 
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TaySan

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
6,530
I have a 65" OLED that has HDR and Dolby Vision capabilities. On 4K blu-rays that have both options, I can tell a significant difference between the two. If HDR is the only option, then I take it cause it's still great and I have no other choice. But Dolby Vision on a 4K disc is incredible. I don't compare HDR / Dolby Vision disc to digital so can't comment.
HDR10 is definitely better than nothing don't get me wrong, but it really rubs me the wrong way how Disney makes enthusiasts pay up the ass for their discs only to make us pay up the ass even more for their streaming service if we want better HDR.

First world problems 😣
 

Lump

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,113
Yes, especially when it’s Disney who has FU money
Some of Disney’s content looks great in Dolby Vision because it’s specifically graded for it (Moana stands out), but it’s pretty clear they’ve just wrapped a bunch of their other movies in a low-effort Dolby Vision wrapper and called it a day. The content pool is pretty vast so it’s understandable, but it’s inconsistent nonetheless.
 

Hokey

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,093
Yes of course, I paid a premium to have all my devices Dolby Vision compatible (Denon AVR-X6400H, Oppo UDP-203, LG C9 & C7).

Very easy to tell the difference, DV has HDR metadata for each scene allowing a better range of bring and dark vs HDR10 which can only set a default value for the overall picture. You can notice this in peak brightness if put side by side.
 

Lump

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,113
Some tvs only take one of the two formats.
For HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, this is typically correct. HDR10+ is a competing format by Samsung that isn’t gaining as much traction right now.

But HDR10 is much more common, plus just about any TV that does either HDR10+ or Dolby Vision will fall back into HDR10 when the content’s alternate advanced format isn’t supported by the display.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,658
You might want to verify that the version on Disney+ was actually properly mastered to take advantage of the Dolby Vision format before getting jealous.

For instance, they have the Star Wars original trilogy up with DV, but the peak brightness never goes above 400 nits.
 

Peltz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,722
For HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, this is typically correct. HDR10+ is a competing format by Samsung that isn’t gaining as much traction right now.

But HDR10 is much more common, plus just about any TV that does either HDR10+ or Dolby Vision will fall back into HDR10 when the content’s alternate advanced format isn’t supported by the display.
Gotcha... all this HDR stuff is a bit poorly marketed. It gets very confusing if you've not actively paying attention to it.
 
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TaySan

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
6,530
Watched Evil Dead 2 last night on my C9 and tonight with my parents on there Vizio TV and the difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10 is definitely there.
You might want to verify that the version on Disney+ was actually properly mastered to take advantage of the Dolby Vision format before getting jealous.

For instance, they have the Star Wars original trilogy up with DV, but the peak brightness never goes above 400 nits.
I heard about that. I hope we can get a proper analysis on these movies. I hate to feel like I have to sub to this service to get the best HDR experience on my TV.
 

Wag

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,800
Studios don't want to put the effort in to put DV transfers on their discs now so they just slap it up for streaming. The increased bitrate of a UHD Blu more than makes up for it.

I rarely buy any 4k discs that aren't DV now- The Shining and 2001 look amazing. I'm waiting on a sale to pick up It's a Wonderful Life and Wizard of Oz.
 
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TaySan

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
6,530
Studios don't want to put the effort in to put DV transfers on their discs now so they just slap it up for streaming. The increased bitrate of a UHD Blu more than makes up for it.

I rarely buy any 4k discs that aren't DV now- The Shining and 2001 look amazing. I'm waiting on a sale to pick up It's a Wonderful Life and Wizard of Oz.
Wizard of Oz is an absolute must buy. Easily the best looking transfer I've seen so far in Dolby Vision.
 

Lump

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,113
Gotcha... all this HDR stuff is a bit poorly marketed. It gets very confusing if you've not actively paying attention to it.
Yes, the state of HDR is a fat mess. A user needs to make sure they get a decent enough TV to support proper HDR (a lot of budget sets that say they do HDR just don't do HDR properly due to low brightness or no local dimming).

And then the user likely has to research the type of dynamic metadata HDR they want to have - HDR10+ or Dolby Vision (if a regular Joe goes to a Best Buy and gets a top-of-the-line Samsung, they're shit out of luck if they want Dolby Vision - it's static metadata HDR for them if they stream Disney+ or Apple TV+).

And then even when that user gets the proper TV, they have to make sure they calibrate their set properly for HDR.

And then after all of that, a bunch of HDR content on these streaming services don't really use HDR all that well. That user might load up Frozen or Star Wars in Dolby Vision on Disney+ and wonder why the brights aren't getting that bright, and think it's something going on with their set. Nope - it's just the grading in that content not taking advantage of the tech, despite a Dolby Vision logo popping up on the display to indicate otherwise.

If someone isn't well versed in this stuff, it's extremely easy to see why a user might be soured by the HDR experience.
 

Wag

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,800
Wizard of Oz is an absolute must buy. Easily the best looking transfer I've seen so far in Dolby Vision.
I would buy it now but I just saw it in the theaters during a Fathom Events showing. I'm sure it will be on sale this coming month or so anyways.

Right now I'd say The Shining, 2001 and Skyscraper are my best looking discs. Vizio just upgraded their newer models for HDR10+ support, of course mine isn't included. I'm pretty pissed with Vizio- they broke Clear Action on my TV in a firmware update almost a year ago so gaming on it isn't all that great. Amazing picture but terrible firmware problems. Never again.
 
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TaySan

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
6,530
Yes, the state of HDR is a fat mess. A user needs to make sure they get a decent enough TV to support proper HDR (a lot of budget sets that say they do HDR just don't do HDR properly due to low brightness or no local dimming).

And then the user likely has to research the type of dynamic metadata HDR they want to have - HDR10+ or Dolby Vision (if a regular Joe goes to a Best Buy and gets a top-of-the-line Samsung, they're shit out of luck if they want Dolby Vision - it's static metadata HDR for them if they stream Disney+ or Apple TV+).

And then even when that user gets the proper TV, they have to make sure they calibrate their set properly for HDR.

And then after all of that, a bunch of HDR content on these streaming services don't really use HDR all that well. That user might load up Frozen or Star Wars in Dolby Vision on Disney+ and wonder why the brights aren't getting that bright, and think it's something going on with their set. Nope - it's just the grading in that content not taking advantage of the tech, despite a Dolby Vision logo popping up on the display to indicate otherwise.

If someone isn't well versed in this stuff, it's extremely easy to see why a user might be soured by the HDR experience.
It just seems like a nightmare situation for the average user. Seems like every TV out now has some sort of drawback to it.
 
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Lump

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,113
It just seems like a nightmare situay for the average user. Seems like every TV out now has some sort of drawback to it.
For my money, the top 2 ~65-inch+ consumer-grade 4k HDR sets right now seem to be LG (if you want OLED for the blackest blacks) or Vizio (fucking Vizio of all brands) if you want local array dimming for the brightest brights while also saving some money. Though Vizio's Smart features are fairly bad so you need an Apple TV or Shield TV to have a good time.

The caveat on Vizio right now is the lack of HDMI 2.1, so it's probably not future-proofed that well for PS5 and the next Xbox if you want that eventual VRR. But for current consoles and media, it's right up there with the best.
 

Wag

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,800
For my money, the top 2 ~65-inch+ consumer-grade 4k HDR sets right now seem to be LG (if you want OLED for the blackest blacks) or Vizio (fucking Vizio of all brands) if you want local array dimming for the brightest brights while also saving some money. Though Vizio's Smart features are fairly bad so you need an Apple TV or Shield TV to have a good time.

The caveat on Vizio right now is the lack of HDMI 2.1, so it's probably not future-proofed that well for PS5 and the next Xbox if you want that eventual VRR. But for current consoles and media, it's right up there with the best.
As I said earlier I wouldn't buy another Vizio at all. The firmware is just too much of a mess. With every update they break more things than they fix. Clear Action hasn't worked on my TV for more than half the time I've owned it.
 

Lump

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,113
As I said earlier I wouldn't buy another Vizio at all. The firmware is just too much of a mess. With every update they break more things than they fix. Clear Action hasn't worked on my TV for more than half the time I've owned it.
I'll agree that the firmware is a lottery. There was a good two month period last year where I had yellow "dark" backlight stripes down my P-Series Quantum that made me think I had a hardware issue. Then I got an update and the issue never returned. The earliest versions of the Quantum had some crashing/restarts too. It was a rough first few months. It has been smooth sailing since about January or so, though.

I'm not one to use BFI so I can't comment on Clear Action, but the updates this year have been solid for me so far. I haven't seen any new problems personally and the Airplay support is a good bonus.

It's very fair to be wary of Vizio's long term hardware / firmware lastability. The Quantum has a picture that's right up there with the best among other brands in (and even somewhat above) its price range, but it's still new and Vizio never did build up a reputation for having hardware that lasts and lasts. We'll see how the set holds up in the next few years, and I'll concede that it's a gamble considering Vizio's pre-Quantum reputation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
645
Did that post I made a week ago trigger the idea of this thread ?

Short answer Yes. My LG E6 does NOT have dynamic tonemapping, and to be honest, the difference between HDR10 and Dolby Vision is bigger than that between a normal blu ray disc and a 4k disc. Dolby vision looks incredible on it, while HDR10 looks barely improved.

Long answer
It's frustrating to be actively prevented you from accessing the best picture quality in their movies. If you buy the disc you get the better bitrate but the inferior HDR format which means a much less vibrant picture. If you steam, you get the superior HDR format and the inferior bitrate which means less details in the picture. 4k UHD discs are expensive and when you pay for a movie on a disc in this day and age, you, should get access to the best version of the film possible on that disc. Especially with a self branded premium format. For anyone who doesn't know the picture, HDR10 is a flat 10 bit colors(more than a billion) which tonemaps the entire movie from one picture. Some modern tv's (not mine) can sort of get around it with built in software, but it doesn't 100 percent fix the issue. Dolby Vision has 12bit colors(more than 68 billion) which it then downscales to the 10bit panel and can have different tonemapping for every frame in the film. This essentially means that if you have a movie with drastically differently lit scenes (like both night and day) you're going to have to choose one, or a middle ground with HDR 10, while Dolby Vision allows you to tonemap each perfectly, leading to a much more vibrant picture. It's a huuge difference in picture quality on my tv.

They did release 2 films on dolby vision. The Last Jedi and Black Panther but then they went away from it again with all subsequent releases. Presumably because someone realised they would be making disney+ and could be able to get people to double dip.

It's just a shame because they make some great movies but at least for me, they make the choice between the 3D disc version and the 4k disc version really easy.
 
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Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
6,759
Some tvs only take one of the two formats.
False.

I have a 65" OLED that has HDR and Dolby Vision capabilities. On 4K blu-rays that have both options, I can tell a significant difference between the two. If HDR is the only option, then I take it cause it's still great and I have no other choice. But Dolby Vision on a 4K disc is incredible. I don't compare HDR / Dolby Vision disc to digital so can't comment.
It really depends on the TV and how the content is mastered. Poor DV mastering can look worse than HDR10. OLED TVs benefit more from DV done right because they don't have the brightness to match a high end LED.

You might want to verify that the version on Disney+ was actually properly mastered to take advantage of the Dolby Vision format before getting jealous.

For instance, they have the Star Wars original trilogy up with DV, but the peak brightness never goes above 400 nits.
Not all HDR TVs can even hit 1000 nits. The majority of OLED sets in homes today aren't going to go above 400 nits.

Did that post I made a week ago trigger the idea of this thread ?

Short answer Yes. My LG E6 does NOT have dynamic tonemapping, and to be honest, the difference between HDR10 and Dolby Vision is bigger than that between a normal blu ray disc and a 4k disc. Dolby vision looks incredible on it, while HDR10 looks barely improved.

Long answer
It's frustrating to be actively prevented you from accessing the best picture quality in their movies. If you buy the disc you get the better bitrate but the inferior HDR format which means a much less vibrant picture. If you steam, you get the superior HDR format and the inferior bitrate which means less details in the picture. 4k UHD discs are expensive and when you pay for a movie on a disc in this day and age, you, should get access to the best version of the film possible on that disc. Especially with a self branded premium format. For anyone who doesn't know the picture, HDR10 is a flat 10 bit colors(more than a billion) which tonemaps the entire movie from one picture. Some modern tv's (not mine) can sort of get around it with built in software, but it doesn't 100 percent fix the issue. Dolby Vision has 12bit colors(more than 68 billion) which it then downscales to the 10bit panel and can have different tonemapping for every frame in the film. This essentially means that if you have a movie with drastically differently lit scenes (like both night and day) you're going to have to choose one, or a middle ground with HDR 10, while Dolby Vision allows you to tonemap each perfectly, leading to a much more vibrant picture. It's a huuge difference in picture quality on my tv.

They did release 2 films on dolby vision. The Last Jedi and Black Panther but then they went away from it again with all subsequent releases. Presumably because someone realised they would be making disney+ and could be able to get people to double dip.

It's just a shame because they make some great movies but at least for me, they make the choice between the 3D disc version and the 4k disc version really easy.
If you're demanding the best, you should be demanding HDR10+ over both HDR10 and DV.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
6,759
HDR10+ is just HDR10 with dynamic tonemapping. Still doesn't match the color range. But yeah. Discs should all come with HDR10+ and Dolby Vision. It's not a tall order.
There is not a single piece of retail DV content that will playback in 12-bit color.

Mastering for both formats is key though. Too many DV discs are mattered visa tooling and don't benefit from the dynamic metadata. Doing DV and HDR10+ right requires manual work and a trained eye.
 
Mar 9, 2019
278
Dolby vision is trash

-raised blacks initially
-bugs that still haven’t been fixed
-different profiles
-two different low latency iterations (Sony TVs and Xbox)
-Poor implementation on disc
 
Oct 25, 2017
645
There is not a single piece of retail DV content that will playback in 12-bit color.

Mastering for both formats is key though. Too many DV discs are mattered visa tooling and don't benefit from the dynamic metadata. Doing DV and HDR10+ right requires manual work and a trained eye.
No but downsampling to 10 bit still produces a much richer image in my experience. It's a night and day difference on my tv. I haven't seen Dolby Vision that looked anywhere near as dull as any HDR10 content on my screen.
 

Peltz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,722
Yes, the state of HDR is a fat mess. A user needs to make sure they get a decent enough TV to support proper HDR (a lot of budget sets that say they do HDR just don't do HDR properly due to low brightness or no local dimming).

And then the user likely has to research the type of dynamic metadata HDR they want to have - HDR10+ or Dolby Vision (if a regular Joe goes to a Best Buy and gets a top-of-the-line Samsung, they're shit out of luck if they want Dolby Vision - it's static metadata HDR for them if they stream Disney+ or Apple TV+).

And then even when that user gets the proper TV, they have to make sure they calibrate their set properly for HDR.

And then after all of that, a bunch of HDR content on these streaming services don't really use HDR all that well. That user might load up Frozen or Star Wars in Dolby Vision on Disney+ and wonder why the brights aren't getting that bright, and think it's something going on with their set. Nope - it's just the grading in that content not taking advantage of the tech, despite a Dolby Vision logo popping up on the display to indicate otherwise.

If someone isn't well versed in this stuff, it's extremely easy to see why a user might be soured by the HDR experience.
Well... it’s worse than I even thought.
 

Lump

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,113
If you're demanding the best, you should be demanding HDR10+ over both HDR10 and DV.
Consumers demanding one of the two formats just isn’t realistic. We’re at the mercy of the deals all these companies make - even more so than consumers ever had a choice when it came to Beta vs VHS or HD-DVD vs Blu-ray. This is an enthusiast forum and even this thread has a lot of people just now learning that HDR10+ even exists.

When it comes to fights like HDR10+ vs Dolby Vision, all us plebs can do is make our purchasing decisions based on which way the wind is blowing. DV has considerably more momentum right now with Apple TV+ and Disney+ (even if Disney+ is being inconsistent with how it uses it).
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,036
a sunken pirate ship
This isn't like THE reason that I don't get 4K BDs (the fact that they don't sell them often at Redbox is the biggest factor), but knowing there is this encoding format war is a major contributing factor.
 

SnatcherHunter

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,670
Looks like Disney's Princess and the Frog is the next 4K UHD to not include Dolby despite having it on Plus.

What's the deal with this? Surely Disney has plenty of money to license Dolby Vision for their Blu Rays. What gives? Stuff like this only hurts 4K Blu Rays as a format and it really bums me out.
I reverted back to Physical. Even HDR10 on a disc looks way better than Vision though streaming. I seen some comparisons, and the stream is way compressed. The sound is also another problem with uncompressed versus lossless sound. Stick to Disc for the best quality possible.
 

GSG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,122
Neither my TV or my projector support Dolby Vision, but it does still bother me. There should be no reason for not putting Dolby Vision content alongside HDR10 on 4K Blu Rays.

I have the same issue with these companies making Atmos 4k Blu Ray exclusive. I had to buy a UHD Blu Ray player to get Atmos but the downconversion from HDR to SDR makes the movies look like crap on my 1080p projector compared to the native 1080p Blu Ray versions.
 

Big_Blue

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,926
Neither my TV or my projector support Dolby Vision, but it does still bother me. There should be no reason for not putting Dolby Vision content alongside HDR10 on 4K Blu Rays.

I have the same issue with these companies making Atmos 4k Blu Ray exclusive. I had to buy a UHD Blu Ray player to get Atmos but the downconversion from HDR to SDR makes the movies look like crap on my 1080p projector compared to the native 1080p Blu Ray versions.
There's a simple reason and it's why I think HDR10+ will win in the end, the lack of royalty fees.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
4,841
Dolby Vision is better sure, but 4K UHD destroys streaming in quality over all, so it's a non issue.
Also HDR really hasn't been implemented that well in many films yet, so i wouldn't worry about it, these older films they kind of shoehorn it in, sometimes with horrible results, The Martian is the only one i know that makes a massive difference, Mars actually looks like Mars color wise.
 

-shadow-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,184
I have a bunch of 4k blu-ray, but don't own a HDR set just yet. So honestly, I just watch the older films just for the (often) much improved image quality. I'll see what all the HDR fuzz is about once I get an HDR capable set. What I did notice, is that Disney in particular is nasty regarding physical releases including Dolby Vision or regular blu-ray having the Atmos mix. Probably a push towards digital, but still sucks that's their way of pulling it off.
 
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TaySan

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
6,530
I reverted back to Physical. Even HDR10 on a disc looks way better than Vision though streaming. I seen some comparisons, and the stream is way compressed. The sound is also another problem with uncompressed versus lossless sound. Stick to Disc for the best quality possible.
I agree and this shouldn't deter people from Physical as I'm only seeing Disney pulling this bullshit. I just want this Format to be used in the best way possible.
 

Branson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
I think the pros of physical media like video and audio quality, outweigh the lack of DV. I have a Sony 900F and can’t tell a huge difference between the formats, but physical vs streaming I can. As long as something is at least 4K hdr, I’m good, as it’s still the expanded color range.