US PoliEra 2020 |OT 1| THE ANTI BENGHAZI (Read Staff Post)

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Oct 25, 2017
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So, I'ma say it....the whole "Why won't she just not talk about issue XYZ" annoys the fuck out of me. Literally a few days ago, the former governor of Vermont said some of the exact same things about Bernie. But, it wasn't "Oh noes why is he saying something during a primary?" But, Hillary comes out and says something....and suddenly it's going hurt the feelings of the Bernie Bros so we shouldn't say it. There is a constant expectation, typically put only on women, that they somehow must be constantly concerned with fragile male egos. And it's bullshit. Especially since it's always, always a 1 way street. No one ever is concerned about how the Warren/Amy supporters feel with the constant online bullshit thrown at them. It's always we gotta worry about the loudest assholes in the room. Because there is this pervasive idea that women have to be the uniters. They have to be willing to take lumps to make sure that everyone else is okay. Warren should have let it go what Bernie did because Bernie got upset. It's this subtle vein of sexism that runs through politics, specifically, but literally everything else. In Hillary's own words from that interview....

Also, let's be real, it doesn't matter what Hillary says or does. It's going to piss someone off anyway. If she did that on purpose, it's fucking cut throat and I love it, because, like it or not, she has a pretty dang large following still within the party. And if Bernie wants to win, he actually has to win over some of these folks. And with his campaign seemingly learning no lessons from 2016......good luck with that.
Speaking as a fellow Warren supporter and as someone who doesn't disagree with a lot of your points here...

Yes, it's unfair and bullshit that we hope Hillary to shut the hell up in an election year. She has a right to speak up and has every right to be bitter and call out the problems that happened in 2016.

However, unfair as it is, Hillary just so happens to be that one person in politics that a ton of people dislike inherently (and we all know why that's the case and why it's unfair to her). Any time she says anything about anyone, it will inevitably cause a stir. Especially if she opts to speak up on heated topics like Bernie, even if/when she's totally right.

But considering what all is happening in the country right now and just how high and seemingly apocalyptic the stakes are in this particular election year, I also think there's value in recognizing that a lot of folks- even those who respect and admire Hillary- do not want any more drama and mass inter-party tension happening this year.

I know you love talking about the 2008 primary and seem to enjoy the drama that's been going on here. But a lot of others aren't and it's just causing a lot of unnecessary stress in a very heated time. That's at least why I'm personally not particularly enthused to see Hillary poke the bear again.
 

shinra-bansho

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Oct 25, 2017
3,902
Lol, Hillary Clinton saying bad things about Bernie Sanders really has no net positive for him. Bernie people being triggered is kind of a nothingburger.

Again, Bernie Sanders doesn't need to win over Bernie Sanders 2016 supporters to win the 2020 primary, he needs to win over Hillary's primary supporters.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,138
Lol, Hillary Clinton saying bad things about Bernie Sanders really has no net positive for him. Bernie people being triggered is kind of a nothingburger.

Again, Bernie Sanders doesn't need to win over Bernie Sanders 2016 supporters to win the 2020 primary, he needs to win over Hillary's primary supporters.
The former is actually true as well, because of how many he's lost from 2016->2020.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,783
Lol

When she’s right (which is nearly all the time) she’s right. Sorry not sorry.
That subset of folks get pissed if Hillary breathes. Who cares. Literally no one is going to give two shits outside incredibly online rose twitter.
So, I'ma say it....the whole "Why won't she just not talk about issue XYZ" annoys the fuck out of me. Literally a few days ago, the former governor of Vermont said some of the exact same things about Bernie. But, it wasn't "Oh noes why is he saying something during a primary?" But, Hillary comes out and says something....and suddenly it's going hurt the feelings of the Bernie Bros so we shouldn't say it. There is a constant expectation, typically put only on women, that they somehow must be constantly concerned with fragile male egos. And it's bullshit. Especially since it's always, always a 1 way street. No one ever is concerned about how the Warren/Amy supporters feel with the constant online bullshit thrown at them. It's always we gotta worry about the loudest assholes in the room. Because there is this pervasive idea that women have to be the uniters. They have to be willing to take lumps to make sure that everyone else is okay. Warren should have let it go what Bernie did because Bernie got upset. It's this subtle vein of sexism that runs through politics, specifically, but literally everything else. In Hillary's own words from that interview....



Also, let's be real, it doesn't matter what Hillary says or does. It's going to piss someone off anyway. If she did that on purpose, it's fucking cut throat and I love it, because, like it or not, she has a pretty dang large following still within the party. And if Bernie wants to win, he actually has to win over some of these folks. And with his campaign seemingly learning no lessons from 2016......good luck with that.
I'm sorry but she is 100% right.
All of this.

lmfaooooooo
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
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Oct 25, 2017
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Don't misunderstand me. I hate when both of them talk about each other publicly in any way. Both them as individuals and their bases. I was a Clinton voter. I bailed on Sanders in the primary specifically because they shifted to treating HRC like the enemy instead of Trump.

But I have suffered infinitely and continue to suffer indefinitely under the weight of Sanders vs Clinton discourse and I strongly believe it is distracting and not meaningful. 2016 was one of the most traumatic periods of my life. I am so sick of being stuck in it.

Everything you said can still be right while also not being the reason people are annoyed, you know?
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,629
People here are actually cheering her on the usual pot stirring and mud slinging against Sanders?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,643
Ok but even so.

Is now the time to be putting a finger on the scale?
Agreed.

Don't misunderstand me. I hate when both of them talk about each other publicly in any way. Both them as individuals and their bases. I was a Clinton voter. I bailed on Sanders in the primary specifically because they shifted to treating HRC like the enemy instead of Trump.

But I have suffered infinitely and continue to suffer indefinitely under the weight of Sanders vs Clinton discourse and I strongly believe it is distracting and not meaningful. 2016 was one of the most traumatic periods of my life. I am so sick of being stuck in it.

Everything you said can still be right while also not being the reason people are annoyed, you know?
Nailed it on the head, right here.
 

adam387

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Nov 27, 2017
3,753
Speaking as a fellow Warren supporter and as someone who doesn't disagree with a lot of your points here...

Yes, it's unfair and bullshit that we hope Hillary to shut the hell up in an election year. She has a right to speak up and has every right to be bitter and call out the problems that happened in 2016.

However, unfair as it is, Hillary just so happens to be that one person in politics that a ton of people dislike inherently (and we all know why that's the case and why it's unfair to her). Any time she says anything about anyone, it will inevitably cause a stir. Especially if she opts to speak up on heated topics like Bernie, even if/when she's totally right.

But considering what all is happening in the country right now and just how high and seemingly apocalyptic the stakes are in this particular election year, I also think there's value in recognizing that a lot of folks- even those who respect and admire Hillary- do not want any more drama and mass inter-party tension happening this year.

I know you love talking about the 2008 primary and seem to enjoy the drama that's been going on here. But a lot of others aren't and it's just causing a lot of unnecessary stress in a very heated time. That's at least why I'm personally not particularly enthused to see Hillary poke the bear again.
I guess my thing is, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you don't deal with bratty children (the online Bros who get triggered by anything anyone does against Bernie Sanders, which to be clear is not a majority of his supporters but just the snake posting variety). That's not how you deal with a whiny child. (Believe me, I know. I have a million of them.) Again, saying don't provoke them removes their culpability for the way they act in the first place. It's a subtle attempt to shift the blame to the person who upset them instead of just accepting they're the problem in this equation. Ironically, that's what Hillary was trying to point out.

And, again, this small but vocal group has shown time and time and time again that literally anything triggers them and sets them off. If it wasn't this, it would be six other things. Hell, a decent chunk of them were losing their shit at Bernie last night for apologizing for his campaigns missteps. Campaigning is drama, politics is drama. It is what it is. But there is this trend that whenever there is conflict between a male and female candidate, the onus is always put on the female candidate to smooth things over. Time after time after time after time. And I'm going to call that out every time because it's fucking bullshit. We saw it with the Warren Bernie thing. Warren should have let it go. Warren shouldn't have mentioned she beat a Republican in a time frame that excluded Bernie because it hurt his fee-fees. Warren should have gone ahead and not confronted Bernie and she should have just let it go.

Ironically, Hillary kinda answers your questions/concerns in the interview.

It's really hard ever to score 100 when you're trying to navigate gender expectations and barriers. Sometimes you really do want to let loose, and then you think, "Oh, great, they'll say I can't take it, so I'm getting angry.” Or they'll say that I'm mad, and that that's not a very attractive look. So, it's a constant evaluation about, how can I best convey who I am, what I believe, what I stand for and what I'm willing to fight for?
.

(Please don't think I'm coming for you, because I'm 100% not. I just wanted to be clear on that.)

Is now the time to be putting a finger on the scale?
She was doing an interview for a documentary that is getting ready to come out, and she was asked the question? But, she actually answers that question in the interview

I really hope young people watch it. Especially young women because I want young women to have some idea of the arc of what we've all gone through over the past 50, 60 years because they have to save [women's rights]. They have to defend them against constant attacks. Some of those attacks are subtle, but some of them are pretty blatant. I'd also love for young men to watch it and go, "Oh, I didn't know that. My God, they burned her in effigy because she wanted universal health care? Whoa." I'd love for some of that to penetrate so that people understand that making change is hard and it doesn't happen overnight with a snap of the finger. I'd love for that to spark a conversation that could really inform how people think about politics and tough policies and maybe even this election.
Also, let me just reiterate, no one of importance will care about this in like 3 hours.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

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Oct 25, 2017
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I guess my thing is, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you don't deal with bratty children (the online Bros who get triggered by anything anyone does against Bernie Sanders, which to be clear is not a majority of his supporters but just the snake posting variety). That's not how you deal with a whiny child. (Believe me, I know. I have a million of them.) Again, saying don't provoke them removes their culpability for the way they act in the first place. It's a subtle attempt to shift the blame to the person who upset them instead of just accepting they're the problem in this equation. Ironically, that's what Hillary was trying to point out.

And, again, this small but vocal group has shown time and time and time again that literally anything triggers them and sets them off. If it wasn't this, it would be six other things. Hell, a decent chunk of them were losing their shit at Bernie last night for apologizing for his campaigns missteps. Campaigning is drama, politics is drama. It is what it is. But there is this trend that whenever there is conflict between a male and female candidate, the onus is always put on the female candidate to smooth things over. Time after time after time after time. And I'm going to call that out every time because it's fucking bullshit. We saw it with the Warren Bernie thing. Warren should have let it go. Warren shouldn't have mentioned she beat a Republican in a time frame that excluded Bernie because it hurt his fee-fees. Warren should have gone ahead and not confronted Bernie and she should have just let it go.

Ironically, Hillary kinda answers your questions/concerns in the interview.

.

(Please don't think I'm coming for you, because I'm 100% not. I just wanted to be clear on that.)


She was doing an interview for a documentary that is getting ready to come out, and she was asked the question? But, she actually answers that question in the interview



Also, let me just reiterate, no one of importance will care about this in like 3 hours.
That answer about not supporting him if he's the nominee is bad form and you know it.

Trump is enemy number one. She just threw gasoline on a fire. And for what?

Her wounded ego. Say this shit after or before 2O20 if you must.
 

adam387

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Nov 27, 2017
3,753
That answer about not supporting him if he's the nominee is bad form and you know it.

Trump is enemy number one. She just threw gasoline on a fire. And for what?

Her wounded ego. Say this shit after or before 2O20 if you must.
Well, I don't think she'll be campaigning for any of the nominees unless it's Warren or Amy...but that's neither here nor there. She gave a very political answer. She deferred to being in a primary. She could have just said yes, because we know that she will support the nominee because she's a Democrat first and foremost. She may not like him, but she'd do whatever was asked of her, I have no doubt.

Also if anyone actually believes Hillary god Damn Clinton won't support the eventual nominee whoever he or she may be is deluding themselves with Clinton Derangement Syndrome.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

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Oct 25, 2017
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Well, I don't think she'll be campaigning for any of the nominees unless it's Warren or Amy...but that's neither here nor there. She gave a very political answer. She deferred to being in a primary. She could have just said yes, because we know that she will support the nominee because she's a Democrat first and foremost. She may not like him, but she'd do whatever was asked of her, I have no doubt.
As someone important in politics even formerly you need to be concise in your language.
We can't chastise Omar for her inaccuracy and then sit here with Hillary saying "I dunno lol" and ignore it.

She messed up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,643
I guess my thing is, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you don't deal with bratty children (the online Bros who get triggered by anything anyone does against Bernie Sanders, which to be clear is not a majority of his supporters but just the snake posting variety). That's not how you deal with a whiny child. (Believe me, I know. I have a million of them.) Again, saying don't provoke them removes their culpability for the way they act in the first place. It's a subtle attempt to shift the blame to the person who upset them instead of just accepting they're the problem in this equation. Ironically, that's what Hillary was trying to point out.

And, again, this small but vocal group has shown time and time and time again that literally anything triggers them and sets them off. If it wasn't this, it would be six other things. Hell, a decent chunk of them were losing their shit at Bernie last night for apologizing for his campaigns missteps. Campaigning is drama, politics is drama. It is what it is. But there is this trend that whenever there is conflict between a male and female candidate, the onus is always put on the female candidate to smooth things over. Time after time after time after time. And I'm going to call that out every time because it's fucking bullshit. We saw it with the Warren Bernie thing. Warren should have let it go. Warren shouldn't have mentioned she beat a Republican in a time frame that excluded Bernie because it hurt his fee-fees. Warren should have gone ahead and not confronted Bernie and she should have just let it go.

Ironically, Hillary kinda answers your questions/concerns in the interview.
Again, I don't disagree that the whole thing is sexist bullshit. It's absolutely unfair for Warren, Hillary, Harris, Klobuchar and any other woman working in politics. They have a right to speak their opinions, even if it does potentially have an incendiary reaction.

But as Finale Fireworker said, it's also just as frustrating for me to see the male candidates say similarly heated things, even if the overt backlash towards them is non-existent in comparison to their female counterparts.

(Please don't think I'm coming for you, because I'm 100% not. I just wanted to be clear on that.)
It's no problem at all. I responded to you first, so I figured I might get a reply back. No harm, no foul! :)
 

Kusagari

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Oct 25, 2017
8,759
Well, I don't think she'll be campaigning for any of the nominees unless it's Warren or Amy...but that's neither here nor there. She gave a very political answer. She deferred to being in a primary. She could have just said yes, because we know that she will support the nominee because she's a Democrat first and foremost. She may not like him, but she'd do whatever was asked of her, I have no doubt.

Also if anyone actually believes Hillary god Damn Clinton won't support the eventual nominee whoever he or she may be is deluding themselves with Clinton Derangement Syndrome.
The diplomatic answer there would be to say, "Obviously I'll support and do whatever I can to help the nominee." She explicitly demurred on saying that because the question involved Bernie.
 

'3y Kingdom

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Oct 27, 2017
3,533
How any of you can blithely endorse Clinton here is beyond me. Supporting the nominee is the one thing any rational Democrat should be able to agree on.
 

Casa

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Oct 25, 2017
2,884
She said she wouldn't commit to publicly endorsing him, not that she wouldn't vote for him.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
3,753
That’s weird because Bernie did publicly endorse her
Because they were running against each other? lol This is not a gotcha....

Look, she said on December 5 during the Stern interview that we have to come together to win.

Like, you can make a lot of critiques of Hillary Clinton. God knows you can, I'm not so blind as not to see that. But the idea that she wouldn't be a good little democrat and vote for whomever the nominee is, is absurd. I also doubt the Bernie campaign would seek her public endorsement because, like....that would literally make the Bros heads explode.

I think she just wanted to make sure she didn't give anyone a sound bite to say she was supporting someone in the primary versus staying totally neutral. She probably err'd on the side of being too cautious.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,629
When this story blows up and overtakes everything else by midday I'm sure that's what she will say!
well the damage has already been done

the vocal Bernie supporters will take the bait, go nuts on Twitter over this, then the people on the other side will point and say "see? she was right!"

no one wins in the end but Trump
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
24,368
Her attacks on Bernie have some legitimacy but refusing to say whether she'd support him against Trump is indefensible and negates basically everything else she said so😬
 

Psychoward

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Nov 7, 2017
24,368
Unless you were taking this stance in the AOC Fuck the Democratic party thread, or any of the thousands of threads attacking Harris, Biden, or anyone that not Bernie you don't have a leg to stand on.
I mean the recurring theme in all of those is that at the end of the day the vast majority of Era is still gonna easily vote for Harris or Biden over Trump.

Not sure how AOC pointing out that a centrist party is a centrist party is equivalent to this either but ok.
 

shinra-bansho

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,902
I mean, in an alternate reality where Elizabeth Warren had run against Hillary (and by Sanders own words he would therefore not have run), or if Sanders had simply not run in 2016... all of 5 people would even know who he was lbr.

Credit where it's due, he has helped to drive / capitalised on a populist left shift in the Democratic Party conversation through his run for President, and in the aftermath of that, but not through the decades prior as a congressman and then junior Senator from Vermont. His most senior role in that tenure was running the VA committee and he kind of bungled that.

In a short space of time, Warren stood up the CFPB from idea to agency. Biden, hate him as much as you want, has legislative positives like the VAWA. Crappy Chuck Schumer authored the Brady Bill that Sanders voted against.
 

Dahbomb

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Oct 25, 2017
7,163
I want to fast forward to a time where I don't have to hear about Trump, Sanders or Hillary Clinton on a near daily basis.
 

Googleplex

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Oct 25, 2017
475
I mean the recurring theme in all of those is that at the end of the day the vast majority of Era is still gonna easily vote for Harris or Biden over Trump.

Not sure how AOC pointing out that a centrist party is a centrist party is equivalent to this either but ok.
It's the same as Bernie labeling Planned Parenthood as ”part of the establishment" at the same time the GOP where doing everything to defend them. It's basically labeling them the enemy of progressives.

Hillary should endorse Bernie we she's good and damned really.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
3,753
Unless you were taking this stance in the AOC Fuck the Democratic party thread, or any of the thousands of threads attacking Harris, Biden, or anyone that not Bernie you don't have a leg to stand on.
No, no, no...see. Attacking the Party or lying about other candidates is 100% fine...as long as you're not Hillary Clinton.

Hillary will vote for Bernie Sanders. Everyone knows this. But if she didn't, hey, it's totally fine right because she lives in safe blue state so a protest vote is totally 100% not a problem. Right? :coughs in Briahna Joy Gray :

Look, just to protect people's feelings she should have said she'd support whomever the nominee was. However, the question was also specifically about campaigning for them. That's a totally different ballgame than a tweet saying you support XYZ. Could she have clarified? Sure. Is this osme big gotcha that literally anyone is going to care bout when we're a few hours away from the second impeachment in anyone living's life time? Nah.
 

Vestal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,743
Tampa FL
Honest question.
Wtf have apparently settled on two old white dudes for the highest office in the land?
Biden and Bernie are both over the fucking hill and neither of them should be running in the first place.

I am in the vote blue no matter what camp. But FFS we need some younger blood in politics or at least some fucking diversity. At least with Warren we have some diversity and a bit of a younger candidate with great policies. We went from two young energetic and personable democratic presidents to what seems to be two fossils.

Sorry, even though I agree with policies from both I just can’t shake the fact that we are toying with the idea of putting up an old white dude to go up against another old orange dude for the presidency.
 

adam387

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Nov 27, 2017
3,753
Also, in every news story about this that I've seen (CNN and NBC News) they cover how her comments relate to Bernie having to apologize to Biden for his surrogates/staff. Which, let's be frank, is an ongoing problem that Hillary was 100% right about.

No matter what Hillary said in the interview, someone would have tried to find something in it to invalidate her points. if it wasn't this it would be something else. But, she could have specified more preciously what she meant. But I find the notion that anyone thinks Hillary Clinton won't support the Democratic nominee for President to be absurd. There are other candidates in the race that have a history of not supporting the Democratic nominee, but we won't worry about them.
 
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