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UK General Election 12th December 2019 |OT1| Hindsight is 20/19 (Tory majority confirmed)

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Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,841
There's been a lot of media focus on hurricanes, forest fires, extinction rebellion etc in that time
Yes but my point is that Labour are going really big on these issues. I voted Green in the EU elections, I have nothing against Green voters but in this general election the best thing for environmentalists is to vote Labour, in my opinion.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
1,861
Labour committed to renewing Trident.

I am shocked.... Well, not really shocked.

It's time for change, but not too much change.
 

H1PSTER

Member
Oct 28, 2017
342
Nottingham, England
There's been a lot of media focus on hurricanes, forest fires, extinction rebellion etc in that time
To add to that the BBC's Attenborough Documentaries amongst others bring out a focus on how it affects and effects wildlife and the world around us and millions watch 'em, it's just become a massive thing to remove plastic and the like from our lives, it's interesting how it's affecting politics.

And it's not -just- that really, folks don't really like the Lib Dems as much as they used to (It is changing though), so they looked for the next alternative and they've found the Greens - they have a lot of policies I agree with (And I do vote for them) however I've heard murmers from a bunch of people who just don't like "the big two" and then they want to vote for someone who didn't screw over students.
 

solidussnaku

Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,518
With this, is there much reason for people to vote Green (except Brighton Pavilion)? I suppose some can't or won't support Corbyn but I always wondered with Labour going big on environmental policies this election why the Greens are currently polling better than they did in 2017.

They will probably go to labour the more swinston and lib dems fall in the polls. The nuclear button shit will repel voters. Some will stick around but the greens have effectively abandoned the field and got nothing in return.

The lib dems are eroding the political and poll advantages they have built in the past year in real time and I expect them to poll around 12-13% when this is all said and done.
 

H1PSTER

Member
Oct 28, 2017
342
Nottingham, England
They will probably go to labour the more swinston and lib dems fall in the polls. The nuclear button shit will repel voters. Some will stick around but the greens have effectively abandoned the field and got nothing in return.

The lib dems are eroding the political and poll advantages they have built in the past year in real time and I expect them to poll around 12-13% when this is all said and done.
I dislike the anti-nuclear policy of the Greens, and some of it does come across as "anti-man", mostly in their meetings however that's just my point of view about it - If they liked nuclear energy I'd be fine with everything else and much happier, this new Labour Manifesto is perhaps swinging me.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,914
If most of the UK doesn't go with Labour after this, reap what you sow again and again. This is good change you want, take it.
 

Geoff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,654
Do you mean dynamite in a good way or a bad way? Genuine question, i'm not a tax professional!
In the sense that it's like dropping a bomb on The City and hoping you kill more rich cunts than you do workers.

It's going to make a lot of my clients very unhappy, which is good news from a certain perspective but it's a huge disincentive for using a company structure for your business, which isn't great because companies are transparent where as unincorporated businesses aren't - and no limited liability means less investment I suppose. The entire IT industry will be absolutely fucked by this because they all operate through personal service companies, which isn't necessarily a bad thing (it's not really fair that industry gets different rules) but that's a lot of votes...

Further than that, it's hard to say without a lot more detail. If 'tax capital gains at income tax rates' means the end of Entrepreneur's Relief, which has been rumoured, that is going to change the economy. On balance, I think that aspect, if that is what is being proposed, would be bad. Yes it means rich people pay more but it will be a big drag on business start-ups.

Really need a lot more detail though
 

Geoff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,654
I should amend that to low earning pensioners. Typically most pensioners end up on low tax income brackets unless they have substantial investments. So there really should be much to tax from their dividends or CG.
I see - it's actually a tax hike. 7% to 20% on divis for basic rate payers. 18% to 20% for gains.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,254
what sort of question is that. "some voters, white working class men in particular, don't see you as patriotic. is that fair?". surprised it wasn't asked by a guy in a giant poppy suit.
It's such a weird question. I wonder why they think white working class men differ on this from white working class women, non-white working class men, and white middle class men?
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,914
Truss is such a liar, squirming something awful when challenged about US big pharma and the NHS. Tories are selling us out 100%. Negotiating objectives, uh huh...
 

Geoff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,654
For those interested (not many I should imagine) here is the detail on the tax

November 2014 33 9. Taxing income from wealth equitably and efficiently Labour believes that returns from wealth should not be taxed less than those from income. Currently people can earn more income from buying property than from working for a living, and they can pay lower taxes on that. This is not just economically inefficient but socially unfair. Capital gains tax was last moved to income tax rates by Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer Nigel Lawson in 1988. Labour will tax capital gains at the same level as income tax and abolish the lower income tax rate for dividend income. It is also a potential inefficiency and source of avoidance that income tax and capital gains tax have separate annual tax-exempt allowances, allowing the wealthy to separate their income into different forms in order to benefit from double tax relief. With a separate dividend tax rate some people with significant income from different sources can benefit from three separate tax-free allowances and there is evidence that business owners declare income in different ways purposely to take advantage of different rates and allowances34. Primary residences will continue to be exempt from capital gains tax. It is now widely recognised that Entrepreneurs Relief in its current form cannot continue, so we will scrap it and consult on a better form of support for entrepreneurs which is not largely just a handout for a small number of people. 35 Sir Edward Troup, executive chair of HMRC until 2018, was reported recently to be calling for its removal36 on the basis of it providing “no incentive for real entrepreneurship”. Similar calls have been made by the Resolution Foundation and the IFS: “We do not find any evidence that tax-motivated retention of profits translates into more investment in business capital. If one of the aims of reduced capital gains tax rates on business assets is to incentivise individuals to invest more in their businesses, this evidence suggests they are not working” This means  Capital gains will be taxed at the marginal income tax schedule as described in Section 7. Capital gains will still be taxed more lightly, as they are not subject to National Insurance: this is especially the case for those with income below the Higher Rate Threshold.  There will no longer be a separate annual exempt allowance for capital gains, above a de minimis threshold of £1,000.  As recommended by the Mirrlees Review we will introduce a ‘rate-of-return’ allowance set at contemporary 10-year bond rates to allow gains below this rate to be earned tax free. There are very few estimates of the potential impact of a change of this type. We have used figures produced by the Institute for Public Policy Research in their 2019 paper ‘Just Tax’: their 34 H. Miller and K. Smith, ‘Low rates of capital gains tax on business income lead to large tax savings but do not boost investment’, IFS Observation, 21 October 2019 35 ‘Scrapping Entrepreneurs’ Relief – the UK’s worst tax break – would give government a £2.7bn head start in funding its NHS pledge’, Resolution Foundation, 29 August 2018 36 ‘Scrap tax relief used by Britain's richest, urges former HMRC head’, The Guardian, 6 November 2019 34 methodology is detailed there37. It incorporates HM Treasury estimates on the potential behavioural effects from increases in capital gains tax due to ‘lock-in’ and substitution effects. There are several reasons why this could be an underestimate, including that:  It does not incorporate the removal of the personal allowance for earners earning over £100,000.  Averaging gains above and below the allowance implicitly assumes gains above and below the threshold largely cancel each other out. Further explanation of this can be found on p14 of ‘Just Tax’.  It does not factor in the wider policies that Labour will adopt to tackle tax evasion and avoidance, laid out in Section 11. The IPPR paper ‘Reforming the taxation of income from wealth’ estimates the potential yield from this policy at the alternative tax rates proposed by different political parties, giving a yield for 2023-24 of £16bn for Labour policies, reduced to £9bn after adjusting for behavioural change. In addition to the lighter taxation of capital gains, owners of assets benefit from reduced rates of income tax on dividends from those assets: sometimes as low as 7.5%. Labour proposes to equalise the tax treatment of income from dividends with other income by charging marginal rates equal to those in our income tax policy as well as – as with capital gains tax – removing the separate allowance subject to a de minimis threshold as with capital gains tax. IPPR analysis (‘Reforming the taxation of dividends’, November 2019) suggested a direct effect of £11bn under Labour income tax rates, or £9bn after behavioural change in 2023-24. The first and third bulletpoints above, regarding the possibility of underestimation for capital gains tax reforms, apply here as well. Due to the uncertainty around the yield from these two changes, we have reduced our estimates by £4bn to err on the side of caution.
Sorry about the formatting

Holy fuck! Entrepreneur's relief will go! Basic rate dividends 32%! Personal allowances for CGT gone!

That is a hugely radical statement of intent!

I'm not going to outright say it will be be bad but it's going to be risky with capital FUCKING RISKY.

I would suggest this is by far the most important part of the manifesto.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,120
Holy fuck! Entrepreneur's relief will go! Basic rate dividends 32%! Personal allowances for CGT gone!
I wonder how many "self employed" people with their own LLC that's going to fuck over? 20% corp tax plus 32 on a dividend... am I getting that right?

Under the assumption that they are the only employee, and were taking dividends as their primary form of income, is this the equivalent of paying 52% income tax?
 

Geoff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,654
I wonder how many "self employed" people with their own LLC that's going to fuck over? 20% corp tax plus 32 on a dividend... am I getting that right?

Under the assumption that they are the only employee, and were taking dividends as their primary form of income, is this the equivalent of paying 52% income tax?
ALL OF THEM (LLC is a US term btw but I know what you mean)

They are all fucked. People will be dropping personal service companies all over the place.

it won't be 52% because people will just take income instead so 20/40/45/50% which is tax deductible for company but it's going to be huge tax hike for those workers (not entirely undeserved mind you in many cases) but big, dramatic changes all the same.
 

Khoryos

Banned
Nov 5, 2019
313
I wonder how many "self employed" people with their own LLC that's going to fuck over? 20% corp tax plus 32 on a dividend... am I getting that right?

Under the assumption that they are the only employee, and were taking dividends as their primary form of income, is this the equivalent of paying 52% income tax?
Not quite? Corporation tax is paid separately, then you issue dividends so it's 32% of a lower number, plus theoretically you should be taking some stuff as salary for NI purposes - or something, when I was contracting my accountant fucked me so I owe more than I should.
 

ChrisP8Three

Member
Oct 26, 2017
317
Leeds
You know I always loved 9/10 does Countdown and liked Rachel Riley, but holy christ on a bike that is bad - bye bye career

I'm still not a Corbyn fan, i hated the long period of flip flopping on Brexit, but as much as i'm not sold entirely on Corbyn I have always voted Labour or Lib dem (local election because the Councillors are incumbent family members and utter shit), and the policies are a winner.
Hope this is the time for actual change
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,914
Neil - How many of the 200,000 starter homes you promised in 2015 have been built?
Truss - I don't have the exact figure to hand.
Neil - It's easy to remember, it's zero.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,120
ALL OF THEM (LLC is a US term btw but I know what you mean)

They are all fucked. People will be dropping personal service companies all over the place.

it won't be 52% because people will just take income instead so 20/40/45/50% which is tax deductible for company but it's going to be huge tax hike for those workers (not entirely undeserved mind you in many cases) but big, dramatic changes all the same.
So, in theory could they (again, referring to "single person" company ) take the company's yearly income as salary, meaning the company ended up with net 0, and pay no corp tax? That would transfer the tax burden entirely to in individual?

I'm interested as it may be something that ends up being relevant to myself in the future (Indie game dev). I want to make sure that I am personally protected (I don't want to end up bankrupt or lose my home due to a lawsuit or something), but also don't want to pay over the odds in taxation when "technically" it's just me doing all the work.

I guess this is why people hire accountants!
 

Geoff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,654
I can't decide of this election pitch is genuine hail mary push to get elected or a tacit admission they aren't going to get elected and therefore an opportunity to burnish their socialist credentials without actually having to deal with the consequences.

There will be a fuck of a lot of votes lost from the middle class here, will they make that up with votes from the working class?
 

Geoff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,654
So, in theory could they (again, referring to "single person" company ) take the company's yearly income as salary, meaning the company ended up with net 0, and pay no corp tax? That would transfer the tax burden entirely to in individual?

I'm interested as it may be something that ends up being relevant to myself in the future (Indie game dev). I want to make sure that I am personally protected (I don't want to end up bankrupt or lose my home due to a lawsuit or something), but also don't want to pay over the odds in taxation when "technically" it's just me doing all the work.

I guess this is why people hire accountants!
Yes exactly. You have it.

But at that point the company is effectively useless anyway and a lot of hassle for nothing.
 
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