• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

The Dragon Ball Z 30th Anniversary collector’s edition Set announced 350$, Nov 2019, 4:3 aspect ratio [UPDATE: Cropped, heavy use of DVNR]

Mendinso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
Cross posting this from the Super OT.



y'all still feeling good about funimation handling this?
This isn't FUNimation's fault. This an issue that Toei themselves are forcing on select licensors. This also includes name changes in the subtitle tracks. Toei, as of late, has been incredibly controlling over the property, and FUNimation's rights to the series continue to be hacked away upon renewals. As it stands, FUNimation only has distribution rights to the TV series for Dragon Ball Super (with Toei dictating how the releases and how FUNimation streams them), though since Fox was involved, they did get the master license for the movie at least. But still, Toei is dictating things about these releases. And likely, one of the things is FUNimation has to release it with the material given, due to the fact this is prior to the Japanese release.

It's a tactic rights holders do to discourage reverse importation. In the past, Japanese used to send composite masters to rights holders (meaning there'd be dot crawl, color bleeding, rainbowing, and the whole nine years) as a means to discourage the Japanese importers from buying foreign releases. This carried onto the BD era, ranging from 1080i masters (despite the shows being full 24p), lower quality video, sometimes censored or TV masters, locked subtitles, or regional lock outs (such as either only English audio being available when played on a Japan marked regional player or just outright refusing the run).

But yeah, I won't defend FUNimation on the Z Blu-ray set, but this particular issue is a Japanese issue more so.

EDIT:

HOLY SHIT.

that's bad.

i'll adjust the post.

Why did the digital version look so much better?
Likely due to it being for the European territories, so they were given better masters, and Blu-ray is a bit of a bitch to deal with on regional locking, so likely less concern of Japanese importing those releases.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,991
Columbus, OH
This isn't FUNimation's fault. This an issue that Toei themselves are forcing on select licensors. This also includes name changes in the subtitle tracks. Toei, as of late, has been incredibly controlling over the property, and FUNimation's rights to the series continue to be hacked away upon renewals. As it stands, FUNimation only has distribution rights to the TV series for Dragon Ball Super (with Toei dictating how the releases and how FUNimation streams them), though since Fox was involved, they did get the master license for the movie at least. But still, Toei is dictating things about these releases. And likely, one of the things is FUNimation has to release it with the material given, due to the fact this is prior to the Japanese release.

It's a tactic rights holders do to discourage reverse importation. In the past, Japanese used to send composite masters to rights holders (meaning there'd be dot crawl, color bleeding, rainbowing, and the whole nine years) as a means to discourage the Japanese importers from buying foreign releases. This carried onto the BD era, ranging from 1080i masters (despite the shows being full 24p), lower quality video, sometimes censored or TV masters, locked subtitles, or regional lock outs (such as either only English audio being available when played on a Japan marked regional player or just outright refusing the run).

But yeah, I won't defend FUNimation on the Z Blu-ray set, but this particular issue is a Japanese issue more so.

EDIT:



Likely due to it being for the European territories, so they were given better masters, and Blu-ray is a bit of a bitch to deal with on regional locking, so likely less concern of Japanese importing those releases.
i remember comparing my R2 DVDs to US versions back in the day.

I'll never forget EoE on DVD.
 

yuhr33

Member
May 19, 2018
1,193
The number of ordered sets on Funimation’s website is decreasing.

Edit: I’m an idiot. It’s a countdown now. There are 2,900 units left that can be ordered.
 
Last edited:

Edge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
Celle, Germany
Holy shit at that blog post. My brain can't process what's happening here. Like, it doesn't make any sense to me no matter how much I think about it.

All the RAW screens look so incredibly amazing. So sharp, so detailed, so high res, the right color, just beautiful, I want that. I just want that exactly how it looks like.

And then you have things like postings from Funimation staff saying bullcrap like "nobody wants grain".
As if grain is something bad. Like holy shit, how did they came to this job and why are they still working there?
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,559
This isn't FUNimation's fault. This an issue that Toei themselves are forcing on select licensors. This also includes name changes in the subtitle tracks. Toei, as of late, has been incredibly controlling over the property, and FUNimation's rights to the series continue to be hacked away upon renewals. As it stands, FUNimation only has distribution rights to the TV series for Dragon Ball Super (with Toei dictating how the releases and how FUNimation streams them), though since Fox was involved, they did get the master license for the movie at least. But still, Toei is dictating things about these releases. And likely, one of the things is FUNimation has to release it with the material given, due to the fact this is prior to the Japanese release.

It's a tactic rights holders do to discourage reverse importation. In the past, Japanese used to send composite masters to rights holders (meaning there'd be dot crawl, color bleeding, rainbowing, and the whole nine years) as a means to discourage the Japanese importers from buying foreign releases. This carried onto the BD era, ranging from 1080i masters (despite the shows being full 24p), lower quality video, sometimes censored or TV masters, locked subtitles, or regional lock outs (such as either only English audio being available when played on a Japan marked regional player or just outright refusing the run).

But yeah, I won't defend FUNimation on the Z Blu-ray set, but this particular issue is a Japanese issue more so.

EDIT:



Likely due to it being for the European territories, so they were given better masters, and Blu-ray is a bit of a bitch to deal with on regional locking, so likely less concern of Japanese importing those releases.
So will the European Blu-ray have the correct master of the green one?
 

Mendinso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
So will the European Blu-ray have the correct master of the green one?
Hopefully, yes. Especially since Blu-ray's a bit of a headache to get around region locking, because of how the lock out system works. We at least know the Amazon UK stream from Manga UK (which was likely added early by accident) had the correct colors. So that's at least a good sign.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,559
Hopefully, yes. Especially since Blu-ray's a bit of a headache to get around region locking, because of how the lock out system works. We at least know the Amazon UK stream from Manga UK (which was likely added early by accident) had the correct colors. So that's at least a good sign.
Yeah, I have the steelbook pre-ordered at Zavvi so really hope it's good quality.
 

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
466
Holy shit at that blog post. My brain can't process what's happening here. Like, it doesn't make any sense to me no matter how much I think about it.

All the RAW screens look so incredibly amazing. So sharp, so detailed, so high res, the right color, just beautiful, I want that. I just want that exactly how it looks like.

And then you have things like postings from Funimation staff saying bullcrap like "nobody wants grain".
As if grain is something bad. Like holy shit, how did they came to this job and why are they still working there?
The raw footage is very soft as is the case with any raw film scan. And the resolution they've shown us is the same in raw as in the remastered.

No studios, regardless of film, tv, or animation, release raw footage of their content. Almost all film requires a level of post-processing: sharpening, cropping, color correction, and noise removal. There's definitely a fine balance that needs to be taken, unfortunately Funimation took it a bit too far.

I think some people see a lot of grain and automatically think it's a "better" image. Almost like how some people see a clean image and think that's better than a grainy one. The reality is there's a middle ground that needs to be taken. A good example is the recent Star Wars theatrical 4K scans.

Just like the DBZ scans, the raw scan of Star Wars has a lot of unintentional and unpleasant grain, but after some DNR and color correction, it's in a state that's more in line with the original intention.



Now I'm not saying the DBZ remastered is necessarily better than the RAW footage. I think the side effects of their post-processing is probably for the worse overall, but just releasing the RAW footage isn't the answer either.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,171
Now I'm not saying the DBZ remastered is necessarily better than the RAW footage. I think the side effects of their post-processing is probably for the worse overall, but just releasing the RAW footage isn't the answer either.
I strongly disagree unlike in your example the raw 16mm scans of DBZ look beautiful.
Maybe, maybe, maybe some very, very slight DNR could improve them further.

But clearly in this case they should of been left well alone.
 

Ash735

Member
Sep 4, 2018
901
I strongly disagree unlike in your example the raw 16mm scans of DBZ look beautiful.
Maybe, maybe, maybe some very, very slight DNR could improve them further.
So basically, Level Sets? They did some ever so minor crops to cut out the curves of the film and some slight manual grain removal in post, that's how they got that look, the only downside cited was some crushed blacks but that was due to it being a third film copy.
 

Edge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
Celle, Germany
I strongly disagree unlike in your example the raw 16mm scans of DBZ look beautiful.
Maybe, maybe, maybe some very, very slight DNR could improve them further.

But clearly in this case they should of been left well alone.

Yeah, it looks as beautiful as the level sets.

You do see, or saw there how much more detail you had with the grain, how cleaner the picture was (if you know what I mean) and how sharper and more natural everything looked with the almost untouched grain. The high res 1080p only started to shine with the level sets and it looked wonderful.

Just give me this again and I would pay 500 bucks for it, it looked that good.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,171
So basically, Level Sets? They did some ever so minor crops to cut out the curves of the film and some slight manual grain removal in post, that's how they got that look, the only downside cited was some crushed blacks but that was due to it being a third film copy.
Yeah those level sets were great, even when funi do something right they end up fucking it up.

My only slim hope at this point is that Toei do their own blurays of DB/DBZ.
And don't fuck it up...
 

fargodog

Member
Feb 24, 2019
263
I'm not a massive DBZ fan, but this seems fucked up fundamentally. Selling an expensive collector's set with one of the main selling points being the original aspect ratio is unbelievably insulting, as I believe aspect ratio is something that should never be dramatically compromised in any final master of a film or television show. It's even worse when working with animation as there's much less freedom to digitally reframe and paint out. Marketing this as a cool extra for the dedicated hardcore with money to spare is a little insulting and disrespectful.

I'm familiar with how Toei are an absolute nightmare to work with when it comes to their treatment of older material from their cinema productions, but the burden of guilt very much seems to be falling on Funimation here. There are other anime distributors taking significant care and consideration of older, more difficult masters than Funimation is when it comes to one of, if not the, most popular anime series of all time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,070
Yeah those level sets were great, even when funi do something right they end up fucking it up.

My only slim hope at this point is that Toei do their own blurays of DB/DBZ.
And don't fuck it up...
Don't count on that the latest DBZ Blu Ray movies from Toei in Japan were censored and look worse than the films on their streaming services.
 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,774
I strongly disagree unlike in your example the raw 16mm scans of DBZ look beautiful.
Maybe, maybe, maybe some very, very slight DNR could improve them further.

But clearly in this case they should of been left well alone.
DBZ has never mixed well with DNR. Even in Kai, where it was implemented properly. The image quality ended up being a bit too blurry for a HD remaster. the Level Sets looked way more detailed than Kai did. DNR shouldn't really be applied to this show. The grain was a part of the image and they should leave that alone.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,171
DBZ has never mixed well with DNR. Even in Kai, where it was implemented properly. The image quality ended up being a bit too blurry for a HD remaster. the Level Sets looked way more detailed than Kai did. DNR shouldn't really be applied to this show. The grain was a part of the image and they should leave that alone.
Personally I think DNR is one of the worse processess you can do to video.
I know it can sometimes have a beneficial effect but the sheer ammount of movies, tv shows etc I have seen utterly ruined by it is frankly absurd.
Grain is a natural part of film stock and if you try and reduce it unless you are really, really careful you end up destroying the detail of the video.
But I also love how grain looks on film stock. It just feels more real somehow, I dunno.
Hell some digital filmmakers actually put grain into their movies to try and recapture the feeling of traditional film, so I'm not alone.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,301
i'm watching the level sets right now and you sometimes catch the end of a frame (bottom left corner)



spoiler: it's not a big fucking deal and I only noticed because i was looking for it. the fact that they feel the need to crop the image so deeply to avoid such terror is such a boneheaded decision.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
7,635
Don't they still have the masters for the Level sets, or does that belong to Toei for some reason? Because they did all that work I'm surprised we haven't seen it released again, or even reused in this set.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,301
Don't they still have the masters for the Level sets, or does that belong to Toei for some reason? Because they did all that work I'm surprised we haven't seen it released again, or even reused in this set.
Funimation's twisted logic:

Grain = no sales
DNR = many sales

So yeah, they'll just let that gorgeous level set remaster sit unused forever.
 

Pop-O-Matic

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,366
That's how many units remain out of the total 6000 they'll be producing of this set.



Though the fact that there's still so many unsold copies of this after nearly 2 weeks is still a damning indictment of this remaster and how Funi is handling it. A properly remastered, properly marketed set would have sold well over 6k on the first day alone.
 

Edge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
Celle, Germany
That's how many units remain out of the total 6000 they'll be producing of this set.



Though the fact that there's still so many unsold copies of this after nearly 2 weeks is still a damning indictment of this remaster and how Funi is handling it. A properly remastered, properly marketed set would have sold well over 6k on the first day alone.

1. I hope it stays that way.

2. No wonder when whole countries can't even look at their website.
I maybe could understand if I simply can't order it because they don't ship overseas, but I can't even look at any site including their blog, at all, from Germany as example. No wonder it sells like crap.

 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
i'm watching the level sets right now and you sometimes catch the end of a frame (bottom left corner)



spoiler: it's not a big fucking deal and I only noticed because i was looking for it. the fact that they feel the need to crop the image so deeply to avoid such terror is such a boneheaded decision.
They are insane. I don't understand their attitude. It's like they feel the need to show how much work they have done, so they over do it
 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,774
Haven't kept up with what's been happening for a few days but it seems like this is getting funded. Can't tell the current pre-order number since i'm not in the US currently but it's telling how bad this set is that the pre order number has slowed down to a crawl. Some have thankfully cancelled their Pre-Orders and hopefully more do. I think the only thing that might slightly redeem this release is if Funimation decide to include The Original Broadcast Audio, since they do have access to it apparently. It would be really appreciated to be able to own the Audio legally but that might be wishful thinking since they seem to have put about ZERO effort in this release and since they don't seem to want to release any further info regarding this set, i think it's pretty telling. Profit margins will be through the roof for them, as i doubt it cost them anything to put this together.
 

yuhr33

Member
May 19, 2018
1,193
The countdown is done and over with and I already see a charge on my card for $349.99. Thought they’d charge me when they ship the thing, but oh well. I’m still excited for the set despite the drawbacks.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,546
I got my set in the mail and the quality of the discs aren’t as bad as I thought they’d be! There’s grain in the footage tho I can’t say for certain if it’s because it isn’t as aggressively dnr’d as in the past or if they just added grain after the fact.

Regardless, this looks good and is totally the best way to watch Z outside of Funimation restarting the Legends series again. I’m happy with my purchase, tho I wish they hadn’t used English title cards and included the next episode previews.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,059
I just can’t bring myself to spend $350 on something I’ve bought multiple times. VHS, three DVD sets, and a bootleg/Chinese DVD set of the series.

I think I’m good.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,546
I just can’t bring myself to spend $350 on something I’ve bought multiple times. VHS, three DVD sets, and a bootleg/Chinese DVD set of the series.

I think I’m good.
I managed to sell my widescreen blus at a profit, covering about 2/3s of the cost of this set. It wasn’t as big a buy in and I’m honestly happy to not have those bad zoomed widescreen crops to deal with.i hear ya tho.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,059
I managed to sell my widescreen blus at a profit, covering about 2/3s of the cost of this set. It wasn’t as big a buy in and I’m honestly happy to not have those bad zoomed widescreen crops to deal with.i hear ya tho.
Makes sense. I’m sure I’d do the same if I owned the blu set. I was too cheap to buy that too haha!
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,070
I got my set in the mail and the quality of the discs aren’t as bad as I thought they’d be! There’s grain in the footage tho I can’t say for certain if it’s because it isn’t as aggressively dnr’d as in the past or if they just added grain after the fact.

Regardless, this looks good and is totally the best way to watch Z outside of Funimation restarting the Legends series again. I’m happy with my purchase, tho I wish they hadn’t used English title cards and included the next episode previews.
The grain in this set was artificially added after the DVNR pass which doesn’t fix the main issue of the removal of detail from the start and this set is still cropped.
 

kingslunk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
178
I’ll never get the dragon boxes because they’re so expensive. This set is about as close to a real complete set that I’ll get to atm.
 
Dec 25, 2018
978
DBZ Kai was pretty damn good until Buu saga was completely butchered in terms of quality. It's embarrassing there's not a single bluray release for DBZ in 2019. The best is pretty much the unfinished level sets, and for the complete show, would be DBZ kai.