• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

The Dragon Ball Z 30th Anniversary collector’s edition Set announced 350$, Nov 2019, 4:3 aspect ratio [UPDATE: Cropped, heavy use of DVNR]

Vitet

Member
Oct 31, 2017
600

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
462
The Raw ones look much better. It's not over-saturated and the detail isn't smeared.
Can you point out what detail is missing?

As for color, I just want it to look as close to the original intention as possible. I would hope they have a few reference cels to base their color correction on. Whether it's actually over-saturated or not I dunno.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,020
Can you point out what detail is missing?

As for color, I just want it to look as close to the original intention as possible. I would hope they have a few reference cels to base their color correction on. Whether it's actually over-saturated or not I dunno.
The most noticeable part is lines of the floor on the Gohan screenshot are smudged and you can barely make out the outlines anymore. It's all in this video if you want to go more in depth about the issues.


It starts at 7:06.
 

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
462
The most noticeable part is lines of the floor on the Gohan screenshot are smudged and you can barely make out the outlines anymore. It's all in this video if you want to go more in depth about the issues.


It starts at 7:06.
Yeah I'll definitely watch that.

As for the lines on the floor, they seem fine to me. All of the elements are still there, even textures, and the light shadowing. Even this image I posted earlier has very specific texture detail that in no way would be retained with heavy DNR. And comparing this to the RAW footage, that texture gets lost in the film grain.

 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,733
Can you point out what detail is missing?

As for color, I just want it to look as close to the original intention as possible. I would hope they have a few reference cels to base their color correction on. Whether it's actually over-saturated or not I dunno.
The entire image is blurrier than it should be. It's smeared. Again, they did this right with the Level Sets but don't do the right thing here for baffling reasons. There is a ton of debate in the DB community regarding what the accurate colors are, for various reasons and there doesn't seem to be a consensus as far as i can tell. So i can't definitively say what the exact accurate colors are but this is over-saturated. Even the level sets i felt were a bit too much for me in this regard but it was far more tasteful than what we have here. Kai 1.0 looked much better color wise as well. There is simply no way this set is accurate.

Comparison

Really the fact that Funimation isn't using the releases that the fans consider good for comparison on the blog and in the video, is really enough of a reason to dismiss them entirely. They have tried to mislead fans in the past. So i wouldn't put anything past them. Really all this set shows is that this company doesn't give a shit about this franchise.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
And just out of fairness, I've taken the full resolution images of both the raw and "remastered" and compared them at a closer detail.

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/1CEFNNNU

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/YZGWNNNX

Sure the raw has more grain, but it's still a blurry mess.
That just shows how terrible the remaster looks.
Look how blurry and horribily DNRed it looks.
Its like some terrible water colour painting.

This comparison is absolutely damning.



Just look at this mess. Its like one of those terrible smoothing filters built into some emulators.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
7,576
The entire image is blurrier than it should be. It's smeared. Again, they did this right with the Level Sets but don't do the right thing here for baffling reasons. There is a ton of debate in the DB community regarding what the accurate colors are, for various reasons and there doesn't seem to be a consensus as far as i can tell. So i can't definitively say what the exact accurate colors are but this is over-saturated. Even the level sets i felt were a bit too much for me in this regard but it was far more tasteful than what we have here. Kai 1.0 looked much better color wise as well. There is simply no way this set is accurate.

Comparison

Really the fact that Funimation isn't using the releases that the fans consider good for comparison on the blog and in the video, is really enough of a reason to dismiss them entirely. They have tried to mislead fans in the past. So i wouldn't put anything past them. Really all this set shows is that this company doesn't give a shit about this franchise.
I wouldn't go so far as they don't care. They obviously do care, at least enough to do a manual crop to get as much picture from their source as they can. They believe their filter makes the image look better, I don't think they're trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes in this.

The bottom line is that for most people, this set, as long as it doesn't further crop the widescreen crop, is probably good enough for the vast majority of fans, certainly for at least 6000 this set is limited to. For the hardcore, this isn't enough, but I don't think they have the source material to make it enough (I mean, if they didn't put the filter on, would people be satisfied with the cropping?) But this is an older show that most of us own in some format anyway, so for the hardcore if it's not perfect, just wait some more and hope. If you think the smoothed out screens of the new release are decent enough, go spend your money, there's really no statement to be made here because even if you dissuade everyone you know, there are going to be 6000 fans/scalpers willing to pony up so it's happening regardless. That's not to say don't voice your complaints, email them, whatever, but I'm not going to begrudge someone buying this set.

The ironic thing about all of this? Who in their right mind is actually going to rewatch this whole set when they get it anyway? :)
 
Last edited:

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
(I mean, if they didn't put the filter on, would people be satisfied with the cropping?)
Yes. Not destroying the picture with DNR is the LEAST they could do.
That they seriously believe they have made the picture better is baffling.

Once again I implore people to let their dissatisfaction be known.
[email protected]
Yes its a tiny chance Funimation will do anything but perhaps someone there has an ounce of sense.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,246
That just shows how terrible the remaster looks.
Look how blurry and horribily DNRed it looks.
Its like some terrible water colour painting.

This comparison is absolutely damning.



Just look at this mess. Its like one of those terrible smoothing filters built into some emulators.
I'm going back and forth between the two trying to see what is being lost other than the grain? Unless the loss of the film grain is the point.
 

rou021

Member
Oct 27, 2017
133
It’s bad enough that they DNR’d it, but they’ve also added edge enhancement too. You can see ringing in both the Gohan and Frieza pics. I’m curious whether the color and gamma are correct as well.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,194
The full resolution comparisons are even more damning. You can see how smudged the linework is now, and how the DNR and sharpen filter have taken softer things like blood (which often had a smeary soft look on characters' bodies to make it stand out as a blemish) or the edges of shading/highlights (like on Freeza's... gem... armor things), and made them into more solid hard edged shapes, which makes those parts look flat.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
The full resolution comparisons are even more damning. You can see how smudged the linework is now, and how the DNR and sharpen filter have taken softer things like blood (which often had a smeary soft look on characters' bodies to make it stand out as a blemish) or the edges of shading/highlights (like on Freeza's... gem... armor things), and made them into more solid hard edged shapes, which makes those parts look flat.
Its absolutely crazy and insulting that Funimation are trying to pass what they are doing as improving the picture.
How can they not understand that they are destroying the image!?
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,226
Its absolutely crazy and insulting that Funimation are trying to pass what they are doing as improving the picture.
How can they not understand that they are destroying the image!?
In their minds, the orange bricks and blu ray season sets had DNR and sold well

The Level Sets and Dragon Boxes had grain and didn't sell well

Therefore the people want DNR
 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,733
I wouldn't go so far as they don't care. They obviously do care, at least enough to do a manual crop to get as much picture from their source as they can. They believe their filter makes the image look better, I don't think they're trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes in this.

The bottom line is that for most people, this set, as long as it doesn't further crop the widescreen crop, is probably good enough for the vast majority of fans, certainly for at least 6000 this set is limited to. For the hardcore, this isn't enough, but I don't think they have the source material to make it enough (I mean, if they didn't put the filter on, would people be satisfied with the cropping?) But this is an older show that most of us own in some format anyway, so for the hardcore if it's not perfect, just wait some more and hope. If you think the smoothed out screens of the new release are decent enough, go spend your money, there's really no statement to be made here because even if you dissuade everyone you know, there are going to be 6000 fans/scalpers willing to pony up so it's happening regardless. That's not to say don't voice your complaints, email them, whatever, but I'm not going to begrudge someone buying this set.

The ironic thing about all of this? Who in their right mind is actually going to rewatch this whole set when they get it anyway? :)
This will obviously get made and it's because of that, Funimation won't have any incentive to address the complaints. Complaints that have been going on since 2007.
I doubt this will pass the required minimum by much. If this pace is any indication, it won't reach the "max" 6000 goal and for a DBZ product, that's absolutely laughable.The goal has slowed down to a crawl. It's obvious that most fans don't want these and if scalpers think that they can resell these for tons of profit. Good Luck with that, since barely anyone want's them now. All buyers are essentially doing is wasting 350 dollars and sending the wrong message to Funimation by giving them the money. I don't begrudge anyone for buying these, but i am frustrated at Funimation for screwing this up (yet again) for the fifth time. I really shouldn't have been so surprised.

The 4.3 frame was done correctly on the Level Sets and the Dragon Boxes. This smeary, watery paint like, ugly look is disgusting. Just like the Orange Bricks and the Season Sets, it will look even worse in motion, when it comes out. This defeats the entire point of remastering this series in HD and putting it out on Blu-Ray. The video looks like a bad online streaming "1080p" video that suffers from low bit-rate. The detail in the image is ruined. All they had to do was make these new sets close to the Level Sets in quality, ideally they would have made these much better, but they have butchered this set beyond repair. All Funimation has done here is alienate anyone who cares what the show looks like.

I was waiting for a good release for YEARS and had they done this right, i would have definitely bought this and re-watched the series again, in the best possible quality, it has ever been in. Not all at once, obviously but why wouldn't i rewatch something that i like? Putting that aside, i strongly feel that a popular and beloved show such as this, deserves better treatment. Especially on it's 30th anniversary. It's insane that it's 2019 and Funimation still can't get this right for something as popular as DBZ, after attempting and failing at it so many times in the past.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
I know I keep repeating myself but let them know by email or by Twitter.

They must know that people aren't happy. Evidence by their terrible explanation blog post that ended up showing people just how bad their restoration is.

They can't be that blind. But politely let them know anyway. Politely.
 

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
462
The full resolution comparisons are even more damning. You can see how smudged the linework is now, and how the DNR and sharpen filter have taken softer things like blood (which often had a smeary soft look on characters' bodies to make it stand out as a blemish) or the edges of shading/highlights (like on Freeza's... gem... armor things), and made them into more solid hard edged shapes, which makes those parts look flat.
This is probably the most accurate criticism. Personally, the RAW footage has way too much grain which negatively impacts the image too. The remaster hardly loses any detail while still retaining fine grain. However, like you said, the the sharpening algorithm adversely effects the image and the line work is getting smudged at times.

But I have no real reference for how things like the blood and armor was actually intended to look like.
 

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
462
Since people are clearly unaware of how the current BD release looks, I've made another comparison.

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/YZGPNNNX

Look, could this release be better? Of course. Are there problems with artificial sharpening and soft line art? Yup. Is it another smear job that's been DNR'd to hell? Not even close. Funimation seems to be trying on some level with this release, but their messaging has been terrible. So is the answer to release the RAW footage? No because that looks bad too. There needs to be some level of post-processing to get the footage into a state that is as close to original intention as possible. Personally I think that state is somewhere between the level sets and this set.

So don't come in here saying this release looks just as bad as all the others, or that there's extreme DNR, because all of those statements are lies. I'd also recommend looking on a computer instead of a phone. Big difference in seeing the fine detail of the 30th edition when I"m looking on mobile.

RAW


30th


BD
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
It does look better than the current Blurays. But they also looked fucking awful as evidenced by your pictures.

But the new one looks pretty bad as well.
Is the raw overly grainy? Yes. But that's probably because is a 3rd gen copy.

But grain is also an intrinsic part of 16mm film. It is very difficult to reduce it without also sacrificing some quality.
Used very sparingly DNR can improve a overly grainy image. Sometimes.

But what Funimation has done here looks monstrous. If they were just going to make it worse they should never have touched the raw footage.
 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,733
Since people are clearly unaware of how the current BD release looks, I've made another comparison.

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/YZGPNNNX

Look, could this release be better? Of course. Are there problems with artificial sharpening and soft line art? Yup. Is it another smear job that's been DNR'd to hell? Not even close. Funimation seems to be trying on some level with this release, but their messaging has been terrible. So is the answer to release the RAW footage? No because that looks bad too. There needs to be some level of post-processing to get the footage into a state that is as close to original intention as possible. Personally I think that state is somewhere between the level sets and this set.

So don't come in here saying this release looks just as bad as all the others, or that there's extreme DNR, because all of those statements are lies. I'd also recommend looking on a computer instead of a phone. Big difference in seeing the fine detail of the 30th edition when I"m looking on mobile.
This being slightly better than the season sets isn't even a thing that should be bragged about. Those sets couldn't have been worse.

Just to drive this point further home.

RAW (Image from a 3rd generation master so it looks a bit grainier than it ideally should and suffers from crushed blacks but it is more than good enough as a source.)


Level Sets. (What it roughly should look like. Accurate to the source. Grain is dialed back to acceptable levels, without losing any detail.)


30th Anniversary. (Smeared. Loss of detail on the ground and shadowy areas, colors look over-saturated and the image is cropped and has less detail than a DVD release)


The image is flat. This is a crap remaster.
 

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
462
Just for fun, here's another comparison. Since we do have most of season 1 in the original remaster, I've added the Level version to this comparison. Unfortunately, there is a lot of compression in the image, so keep that in mind when viewing. It's the best I could come up with.

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/1CMFNNNU

I do think the Levels remaster is the superior version out of all of them, but I actually don't hate the 30th edition. Unfortunately, if you look at the clouds in the background they are a clear victim of the poor sharpening algorithm.
 

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
462
This being slightly better than the season sets isn't even a thing that should be bragged about. Those sets couldn't have been worse.

Just to drive this point further home.

RAW (Image from a 3rd generation master so it looks a bit grainier than it ideally should and suffers from crushed blacks but it is more than good enough as a source.)


Level Sets. (What it roughly should look like. Accurate to the source. Grain is dialed back to acceptable levels, without losing any detail.)


30th Anniversary. (Smeared. Loss of detail on the ground and shadowy areas, colors look over-saturated and the image is cropped and has less detail than a DVD release)


The image is flat. This is a crap remaster.
Slightly better than the seasons set? Come on, there are definite problems with the 30th, but those 2 aren't even in the same ballpark. They might as well be 2 different shows they're so far apart.

Anyway, not sure why the random Youtube side is posted, but here's the 30th in full resolution.



It's definitely not as good as the levels set, but it's not a complete bastardization. Honestly the levels set has way too much contrast, so of course comparing it to the 30th, the latter is going to look flat. I actually find the color correction more pleasing in the 30th, but clarity and line art are far superior in the levels set.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
It all so baffling.
They knew how to do it right the first time.
The Level sets prove that.

Now they show this blurry, smeared mess.
And parade it like it's not a straight downgrade of their earlier work.

Also why is the new footage cropped MORE than their own level sets?

My head spins.

Also thinking about it even further they literally had perfect copies of part of the series already from their own level sets!
So they actually went and did extra work to make their own remaster look worse!!

WHO THE ACTUAL FUCK WOULD DO THIS?
 
Last edited:
Nov 2, 2017
748
This is all just genuinely mystifying. Even if it wasn't fully remastered a la the level sets, you'd think it wouldn't be too hard to just jam all the dragon box quality footage on Blu rays with all available american/Japanese soundtracks and voices.

Why go through the extra effort to make a worse product?
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
2,056


I've had enough. I'm going to search for every single Dragonbox and buy them.
It’s so expensive. Kinda sad that I haven’t watched it past the Frieza saga. Did the same with the blu ray collectors set from amazon.
I’m still missing Kai. :x

:0
I’m assuming those won’t have English dub/subs. :P

Hope it gets released soon.
 

SeroTyler

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,005
This is all just genuinely mystifying. Even if it wasn't fully remastered a la the level sets, you'd think it wouldn't be too hard to just jam all the dragon box quality footage on Blu rays with all available american/Japanese soundtracks and voices.

Why go through the extra effort to make a worse product?
They likely would have to license those again and they must have been super expensive judging by the fact that they only ever did one run of those. Does Toei even still do runs of them anymore? I feel like they could make bank on a super definitive HD run of Z boxes but after Kai and the movie blu rays they did I'm worried they'd also err on the grainless side of things.
 

Master Of Illusion

Alt Account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
856
They likely would have to license those again and they must have been super expensive judging by the fact that they only ever did one run of those. Does Toei even still do runs of them anymore? I feel like they could make bank on a super definitive HD run of Z boxes but after Kai and the movie blu rays they did I'm worried they'd also err on the grainless side of things.
Given what Toei did to the movies, you also have to worry about the inevitable censorship they'd apply if they did go through with that.
 

Slaythe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
Black levels may or may not be an issue, I'd like to see the final blu ray. But it's not like there's any detail lost in the blacks.

As for the details in the floor and wall, nah, there's no detail lost. They even retained the fine texture on the computer that gets lost with heavy film grain.


 

trunks

Member
Nov 5, 2017
20
From the Kanzenshuu forums:
Word from the community manager of Funimation, via Discord:

Best way to voice your dissatisfaction is to email Funi using the contact form. Tweets, etc. will just go to him or another member of the community management team, who can do nothing, meanwhile emails will go to the care team, who will pass it on to people who can do something. He suggests using the "Product concerns" category on the contact form.

So, get those emails flowing!! You all know what to do!
And remember, keep it civil, and be specific!

(And also, spread the word!)
 

Yari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
896
I'd love a full collection but I can skip this one as I did the previous sets.

I still have the Dragonbox The Movies from when it came out many years ago. The regular Dragonboxes were too expensive for me then.
Cool that they are still around even today. I loved those numbered DVDs too, they had amazing covers. Expensive though for just 3 episodes per disc or something.



(Not my picture)
 

Vitet

Member
Oct 31, 2017
600
:0
I’m assuming those won’t have English dub/subs. :P

Hope it gets released soon.
Nope, here DB was released on a bunch of languages long before it was dubbed to English, so only those and Japanese, we assume.

There's still little information about it, only details revealed are that the negotiations were pretty hard, it took about 2 years to be approved and it will have DTS audio.
 

rou021

Member
Oct 27, 2017
133
Looking better than the current Blu-ray release is one hell of a low bar. Given how bad that version is, I don’t think praise is warranted for it looking only slightly better.
This pic is emblematic of most of the issues mentioned so far, but it also shows how they’ve slightly changed the color too. Notice how the part of the armor that’s supposed to be white has a red-ish to almost purple tint? Compare that to the cap directly above it, which is far more neutral. So that makes:

-Poor cropping
-Heavy DNR
-Edge enhancement
-Reduced detail because of these
-Lighter gamma
-Added tint

Am I missing anything? I think they only way they could screw this up more would be using a crappy, bit-starved encode on the disc. Being 4:3 with a touch more detail doesn’t make up for everything wrong with this release.
 

yuhr33

Member
May 19, 2018
1,182
I think some of the comparisons look better. I ordered this set, and I’m not unhappy with it. It’s not perfect, judging from all of the analysis, if it’s not your bag, that’s cool.

I haven’t seen DBZ in anything close to 4:3, and while this set isn’t perfect, I’m perfectly happy with what they’re doing.
 

Deleted member 225

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,658
How hard is it to just release Dragon Ball as it should be? Like Funimation fucks this up. Every. Single. Time.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
How hard is it to just release Dragon Ball as it should be? Like Funimation fucks this up. Every. Single. Time.
Not every time.
They did release the Dragon Box. Only for Z though. But you can't buy that anymore...
Then they did the beautiful level sets and cancelled them unfinished....

There is still no decent in print way to own DBZ or DB for that matter.
That's kinda insane and just shows how awfully Funimation have treated the franchise.

Also they never replied to my polite complaint. Not that I thought they would but still.
 

Deleted member 225

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,658
Not every time.
They did release the Dragon Box. Only for Z though. But you can't buy that anymore...
Then they did the beautiful level sets and cancelled them unfinished....

There is still no decent in print way to own DBZ or DB for that matter.
That's kinda insane and just shows how awfully Funimation have treated the franchise.

Also they never replied to my polite complaint. Not that I thought they would but still.
All I want is a Dragon Ball physical release. I heard the DVD sets from like a decade back are good.
 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,733
All I want is a Dragon Ball physical release. I heard the DVD sets from like a decade back are good.
Those are pretty much the only ones worth owning, a set that was originally produced in 2003.

It's annoying because the Dragon Boxes aren't perfect either but at-least they presents the show in a acceptable way. That seems like it will remain to be the case for a long time, at-least until Toie decides to do a proper HD remaster of the series themselves but as long as Funimation is at the wheel, we will continue to receive garbage, especially if people keep supporting Funi and buy this set.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
I think some of the comparisons look better. I ordered this set, and I’m not unhappy with it. It’s not perfect, judging from all of the analysis, if it’s not your bag, that’s cool.

I haven’t seen DBZ in anything close to 4:3, and while this set isn’t perfect, I’m perfectly happy with what they’re doing.
It’s still cropped, though! You’re not even getting the parts of the screen that got lopped off.