So wait, Palpatine DIDN'T order the creation of the clone army?

Oct 28, 2017
12,704
California
Yeah I remember watching Attack of the Clines in the movie theater when I was 15 and going home confused as fuck as to how and why the clone army was created. Thought they would answer it in the next movie but nope.
 
Oct 28, 2017
12,704
California
I’m also reading all the answers in here and they make sense, but I shouldn’t have to do extra homework to understand a major plot point/event from a movie lol.

Having said that, is Rebels worth checking out?
 
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TableBeRound

TableBeRound

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Oct 21, 2019
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Some people here are saying that The Clone Wars explained/fixed the clone army plot hole but to me it seems like TCW simply over-complicated it.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,009
Some people here are saying that The Clone Wars explained/fixed the clone army plot hole but to me it seems like TCW simply over-complicated it.
It works better because ordering a secret clone army feels like the sort of thing that should be a bit complicated. With the movies, the simplicity of the implied conversation where Sifo just asks for them like he's ordering a big mac and they unquestioningly do it just boggles the mind.
 

Fj0823

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Oct 25, 2017
8,717
Costa Rica
It works better because ordering a secret clone army feels like the sort of thing that should be a bit complicated. With the movies, the simplicity of the implied conversation where Sifo just asks for them like he's ordering a big mac and they unquestioningly do it just boggles the mind.
But to be fair, Kaminoans sell clone armies like Big Macs
 

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,210
I’m also reading all the answers in here and they make sense, but I shouldn’t have to do extra homework to understand a major plot point/event from a movie lol.

Having said that, is Rebels worth checking out?
Rebels is "okay" but nothing super special. It's a purely kid-targeted show, which means they do dumb things like even avoid using the words "die" or "death" and go to great lengths to not show death happening. The main cast of Rebels is kinda generic and not very deep, which is unfortunate since they are the focus of the vast majority of the series.

There are some genuine fantastic moments that do rise above that, but nearly all of them are playing off of plot threads started in TCW. So... basically watch TCW first and then watch Rebels I guess if you enjoyed that and want to see what happened to some of those characters.

The Inquisitors were a pretty cool/good idea though, so at least Rebels gave us that apart from just a few more good "Clone Wars" moments.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,696
The Inquisitors were a pretty cool/good idea though, so at least Rebels gave us that apart from just a few more good "Clone Wars" moments
Too bad the Inquisitiors in the show suck except for the Grand Inquisitor and have helicopter lightsabers

So far the Second Sister in Fallen order is way better

The Inquisitiors in the comic were cool as well

And it's not even a new idea old EU had former jedi hunt down jedi
 

Sendero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
190
Having said that, is Rebels worth checking out?
The Clone Wars series is amazing, and easily among the best material of all Star Wars (the 1st season struggles to find its foot, though).

Rebels?? I haven't finished it, but at least in the first 3 seasons, it's a massive downgrade. The dialogue is straight awful, and several of the episodes are either boring, inconsequential, or stretched too thin for its own good. The main cast actions makes them look ridiculously powerful (compared to the rest of SW) in most episodes, yet somehow become dumb and weak when the plot requires them to.

Worse of all, their train of though is dumbed down to cartoonish levels. One of the great things of TCW, is how Obi Wan/Anakin/Ahsoka are depicted as naturally smart, inquisitive, and usually anticipating very obvious tramps, mirroring what we as viewers would expect. This no longer the case in Rebels.

But it does pursue some interesting ideas (gray Jedi), the cast is likeable and it does advance the Ahsoka/Vader/Maul/Obi Wan stories.
 

Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
5,009
This is true, but it's also the point of the prequel trilogy. The Jedi lost their way (except for Qui-Gon)

It's totally fair to not like that though.
What supports this line of thinking in the trilogy? Because the narrative seems to validate the Jedi council if anything. Lucas straight up says that Anakin's emotional attachment is the reason he became Darth Vader, so the writer is clearly working from the perspective that their philosophy of detachment is correct, and everyone else who criticizes the Jedi seems to be Sith lords.

"The Jedi were corrupt and wrong" just seems like another ad-hoc rationalization for how shitty the prequels were rather than something written into the actual narrative.

The example of Quigon doesn't really help either. That Quigon is a little more liberal than the otherwise radically conservative Jedi is established, but that doesn't necessarily make him correct or the Jedi Order incorrect. Quigon's most significant act is him deciding that Anakin should be trained, an order that the Jedi council would have otherwise opposed....and look what happened, Anakin killed them all.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,101
But to be fair, Kaminoans sell clone armies like Big Macs
Why that's a dumb idea:

Step 1) Order biggest cloned army yet
Step 2) Pay for it and bid your time
Step 3) Receive control of clones
Step 4) Destroy Kaminoans, get all their money and more importantly destroy their research to ensure that no one will ever simply order an army again
Step 5) ????
Step 6) Galactic domination (and therefore Profit)
 

Kor of Memory

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,109
Serious answer they age double of humans so some of them became storm troopers, rebels and whatever but ultimately they all died off and the empire stopped using them

Life sucks for Clones
Note that only the first batch age twice as fast as a human. Halfway through the war more troops were needed and the entire process was hastened. This resulted in the later batches of clones actually aging 3 times faster than normal.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,706
What supports this line of thinking in the trilogy? Because the narrative seems to validate the Jedi council if anything. Lucas straight up says that Anakin's emotional attachment is the reason he became Darth Vader, so the writer is clearly working from the perspective that their philosophy of detachment is correct, and everyone else who criticizes the Jedi seems to be Sith lords.

"The Jedi were corrupt and wrong" just seems like another ad-hoc rationalization for how shitty the prequels were rather than something written into the actual narrative.

The example of Quigon doesn't really help either. That Quigon is a little more liberal than the otherwise radically conservative Jedi is established, but that doesn't necessarily make him correct or the Jedi Order incorrect. Quigon's most significant act is him deciding that Anakin should be trained, an order that the Jedi council would have otherwise opposed....and look what happened, Anakin killed them all.
It's almost all of Yoda's scenes throughout Ep3. The Jedi losing their ability to sense the Force. Qui-Gon being the only Jedi to naturally become a Force ghost (which I would say actually does make him correct and them not correct. Yoda and Obi-Wan study Qui-Gon in their exile). Obi-Wan being an arrogant teacher (his line "besides, your senses aren't as good as my own" to Anakin in Ep2 could've come from Zap Brannigan for how douchey it is. He has tons of lines like that in Ep2, though he's wiser in Ep3). And of course the Jedi insistence on being dispassionate sociopaths instead of having any personal connections to people.

As for the narrative justifying their beliefs, that's post-hoc rationalization. The same argument would justify Qui-Gon just cutting off Anakin's head. Boom, no Darth Vader.

Hell, even the OT and ST have this theme. Yoda and Ben just think Luke should've ganked Vader, and Yoda's ghost later sits with Luke while the old ways literally burn in front of them.

The overarching theme of the Skywalkers' arcs is that Anakin wasn't destined to fall, even after becoming Vader. The archaic code failed Anakin (I mean, the code literally expected him to have no emotional reaction to his slave mom being tortured to death. WHAT), and it didn't save him in the end either. His kid did (who the code says shouldn't exist).
 

Mansa Mufasa

Member
Jun 17, 2019
339
So I was looking around Wookieepedia and I was shocked to learn that Sifo-Dias, a Jedi, really did order the creation of the clone army as the Kaminoans claimed. For 17 years I thought that Palpatine had the guy killed and then posed as him to order the clones but no. Instead, Dooku went to Kamino after the fact and gave them a biochip (Order 66) to be implanted into all the clones. Am I the only one who didn't now this was the case?
Dooku works for Palpatine.

Daily reminder to watch Clone Wars
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
I tried watching it while it was on the air and it made the prequels look good. I've heard that it gets better, but only from people whose opinions I don't value at all.

My opinion ultimately doesn't matter, but yes, it gets far and away better after the first season. It has so much world and character building, not just for the cartoon characters (the clones, ahsoka, etc) but also fleshes out movie favorites, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto. It has breathtaking highs and depressing (in a good way) lows. For me it is the embodiment of Star Wars.

But I understand it may not be for everyone.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,405
Yeah so I had thought back then that Dooku was Sifo Dias and he ordered it at the behest of Palestine and palps was basically having a war with himself to gain control. I guess I wasn’t watching closely enough
 

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,210
What supports this line of thinking in the trilogy? Because the narrative seems to validate the Jedi council if anything. Lucas straight up says that Anakin's emotional attachment is the reason he became Darth Vader, so the writer is clearly working from the perspective that their philosophy of detachment is correct, and everyone else who criticizes the Jedi seems to be Sith lords.

"The Jedi were corrupt and wrong" just seems like another ad-hoc rationalization for how shitty the prequels were rather than something written into the actual narrative.

The example of Quigon doesn't really help either. That Quigon is a little more liberal than the otherwise radically conservative Jedi is established, but that doesn't necessarily make him correct or the Jedi Order incorrect. Quigon's most significant act is him deciding that Anakin should be trained, an order that the Jedi council would have otherwise opposed....and look what happened, Anakin killed them all.
This is a bit of a misread because Anakin is actually irrelevant to Palpatine's plan. Order 66 would have happened with or without him being a Jedi or even turning to the dark side.
 

Melkezadek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,414
The Plagueis novel is unironically excellent, and enhances the hell out of Palpatine as well. It explains all this, and greatly recontextualizes the events of the prequels.

Plagueis NOT actually surviving, and being the big bad of the ST is one of its many missed opportunities.
It annoys me how Plagueis didn't meet a more honorable end. Even Palpatine wasn't sure if he was more powerful than him, which is why he killed him in his sleep I guess. At that point in the story, Plagueis was a beast.

If Disney ever has the guts to make a PG-13 SW movie, an adaptation of the Plagueis novel would be great. Like 'Rogue One' but for Episode 1. It gives an actually perspective to the Sith that the movies haven't really gone into spanning decades prior to the Clone Wars. You start to understand why the 'Rule of 2' was even a thing and how it was key to the overthrowing of the Republic. Enhances the PT in many ways.
 
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TableBeRound

TableBeRound

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Oct 21, 2019
235
It annoys me how Plagueis didn't meet a more honorable end. Even Palpatine wasn't sure if he was more powerful than him, which is why he killed him in his sleep I guess. At that point in the story, Plagueis was a beast.

If Disney ever has the guts to make a PG-13 SW movie, an adaptation of the Plagueis novel would be great. Like 'Rogue One' but for Episode 1. It gives an actually perspective to the Sith that the movies haven't really gone into spanning decades prior to the Clone Wars. You start to understand why the 'Rule of 2' was even a thing and how it was key to the overthrowing of the Republic. Enhances the PT in many ways.
All the Disney Star Wars movies rated PG-13 though.
 

Melkezadek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,414
All the Disney Star Wars movies rated PG-13 though.
I guess I mean as close to 'R' as possible for violence. Some of the things that happen in the novel are pretty gruesome and showcase some of the most brutal applications of the force we have yet to see in a movie.

The scene where Palpatine and Plagueis fight off an assassination attempt comes to mind. Or when Plagueis karate chops his master's neck, killing him, just to observe how his midichlorians respond as his dies.
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,994
Why that's a dumb idea:

Step 1) Order biggest cloned army yet
Step 2) Pay for it and bid your time
Step 3) Receive control of clones
Step 4) Destroy Kaminoans, get all their money and more importantly destroy their research to ensure that no one will ever simply order an army again
Step 5) ????
Step 6) Galactic domination (and therefore Profit)
Slow down, Daenerys.
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,284
What actually happened to the massive clone armies after the Clone Wars?
Besides aging at accelerated rates, according to the guide to warfare and other books many clones became the early stormtroopers during the transition to the empire. Also the clone army was actually not that big for the size of the SW universe, it was always outnumbered heavily by the droid armies but it never was that massive of an army and the Empire was much bigger, so eventually the clones just got phased out.

Also remaining clones were made part of the inquisition and became purge troopers
 

night814

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,144
Pennsylvania
I remember the first time I saw AotC, I was so sure Dooku was going to turn out to be a good guy, a secret double agent who really never stopped being a Jedi and had infiltrated Palpatine/Sidious to bring him down, and that Anakin was going to fuck all of that up, which was going to be a huge component of his downfall.
I would have loved this, my brother and I made so much fun of Chris Lee in AotC.