So wait, Palpatine DIDN'T order the creation of the clone army?

Fritz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,631
I knew about it. Pretty much what Duane said is what happened. Also in the original expanded universe one of the reasons why Palpatine created the Empire was because he knew eventually the Yuuzhan Vong were coming to the galaxy and he needed enough power and strength to combat them. It is all pretty dumb.
heroes on both sides
 
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Druffmaul

Member
Oct 24, 2018
322
I remember the first time I saw AotC, I was so sure Dooku was going to turn out to be a good guy, a secret double agent who really never stopped being a Jedi and had infiltrated Palpatine/Sidious to bring him down, and that Anakin was going to fuck all of that up, which was going to be a huge component of his downfall.
 
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TableBeRound

TableBeRound

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Oct 21, 2019
235
Palpatine and Dooku. Presumably the Jedi have a lot of funds and resources though, they run a pretty large operation. So I'm sure the Kaminoans were confident that the Jedi Council could pay.
So Sifo-Dyas told the Cloners that the Jedi would pay even though at that point the others were categorically against this?

Jedi are literally the law enforcement arm of the Republic. It's not that different from an Army general approaching Boeing and ordering a bunch of fighter jets. The government would be funding it.
Palpatine would have had to pay for all of it out of his own pocket to keep it a secret for 10 years though.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,704
Didn't realise Order 66 was carried out using chips in the clones, I always assumed it was just a secret order they all knew about and, being loyal soldiers, would follow when told to.
The chip was one of the best ideas I think. In one of the animated series we see how haunted of of the Clones who survived were by having to carry out the order against their will, and towards the end of Clone Wars you see one of the Clones actually stumble on the chip in what i thought were some of the best episodes of that series.
It seems like a retcon but it allows for them to keep the tragedy of 66 and at the same allow the clones to actually get character development and unique personalities and grow close to the jedi

I remember in old eu the clones always felt guilty because they knew they would have to betray them but it doesn't really work in the clone wars show because the clones have independent thought and were willing to break rules and disobey to get the job done
This would have been a nice streamlined explanation, yeah.

Also, if Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, where did he get the money from? I'm pretty sure you'd have to pay in advance for something like that and considering the cloners also built the ships, vehicles and all the tech we're talking about trillions and trillions of credits. I could see Palpatine having that kind wealth considering that he's old and probably also acquired everything Plagueis had. But a Jedi?
The Republic was getting broke trying to fund the army too

I know it's because they had a billion other expense but they were fighting a war over the entire galaxy

Where the fuck does a space monk get the money for that
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,441
Just rewatched AotC recently with the kids with our slow watch toward RoS, and something came back to mind that I always wondered:

Why do the Council (and the Republic) place their faith on a clone army created under super shady circumstances, when it is even made plainly obvious (via Obi Wan following him) that the main template for said army (Jango Fett) is working for count Dooku and the Separatists -at the same time-.

That never made sense to me, and I was just reminded of it. Just couldn't make it work in my mind, and I tried.
Did I miss something?
 

Neo0mj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,791
I still want to know who paid for all those clones.
In the Darth Plagues novel it's shown that Plagues was the one who planted the idea of raising a clone army into Dias's head (with Palpatine being the one who planted it in Plagues's head) and provided him with the initial funds to start it.
 

NealMcCauley

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,205
I still want to know who paid for all those clones.
This. There is no way a Jedi could have paid for it.
I think several episodes of Clone Wars covered this. Someone with more knowledge can correct me. IIRC whoever commissioned the clones secured a loan from the "Banking clan," (the show implied all large business deals and credit transfers were controlled by a single family) and during the war the clan threatened to call in the loan during a bad time for the Republic. Long story short Separatists, under Dooku and unofficially Palpatine/Sidious, get involved and try to take control of the clan only for Chancellor Palpatine to offer the clan protection if the loan was considered paid. They agreed. So essentially not only did Palpatine get the army for free, he also assumed control of most of the money in the galaxy.
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,517
Palpatine and Dooku. Presumably the Jedi have a lot of funds and resources though, they run a pretty large operation. So I'm sure the Kaminoans were confident that the Jedi Council could pay.
How are the warrior monk peacekeepers swimming in dough, though? It's not like they receive a tithe from people. You don't see people going to Jedi church. I assume their budget comes directly from the Republic senate. There's having funds and then there's ordering an army (complete with machinery and starships) that can fight a galactic scale war.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,273
I didn't know...

...and I still wonder what Christopher Lee's initial reaction was when Lucas told him his character was named Dooku.

As always with Lee, I'm sure it was completely professional.
Lee has been named worse, here he is as Fu Manchu



Here's Lee in 1977 when the first Star Wars came out



The man is accustomed to FAR worse than Lucas's silliness
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,517
I think several episodes of Clone Wars covered this. Someone with more knowledge can correct me. IIRC whoever commissioned the clones secured a loan from the "Banking clan," (the show implied all large business deals and credit transfers were controlled by a single family) and during the war the clan threatened to call in the loan during a bad time for the Republic. Long story short Separatists, under Dooku and unofficially Palpatine/Sidious, get involved and try to take control of the clan only for Chancellor Palpatine to offer the clan protection if the loan was considered paid. They agreed. So essentially not only did Palpatine get the army for free, he also assumed control of most of the money in the galaxy.
I can get behind this retcon even if it's ludicrous to think that a single guild controls the wealth of the entire galaxy.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,704
It's like a random ass general ordering
I think several episodes of Clone Wars covered this. Someone with more knowledge can correct me. IIRC whoever commissioned the clones secured a loan from the "Banking clan," (the show implied all large business deals and credit transfers were controlled by a single family) and during the war the clan threatened to call in the loan during a bad time for the Republic. Long story short Separatists, under Dooku and unofficially Palpatine/Sidious, get involved and try to take control of the clan only for Chancellor Palpatine to offer the clan protection if the loan was considered paid. They agreed. So essentially not only did Palpatine get the army for free, he also assumed control of most of the money in the galaxy.
At least that's something
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,089
So Sifo-Dyas told the Cloners that the Jedi would pay even though at that point the others were categorically against this?



Palpatine would have had to pay for all of it out of his own pocket to keep it a secret for 10 years though.
The Kaminoans would have no idea that Sifo Dyas, a Jedi Master who sits on the council, was working on his own and no reason to assume his request was against the wishes of the council.
How are the warrior monk peacekeepers swimming in dough, though? It's not like they receive a tithe from people. You don't see people going to Jedi church. I assume their budget comes directly from the Republic senate. There's having funds and then there's ordering an army (complete with machinery and starships) that can fight a galactic scale war.
Well Palpatine quickly assumed control over the project and began funding it, you wouldn't just pay for the entire thing upfront.
 

caliph95

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Oct 25, 2017
22,704
The Clone wars show seems to exist not only to be great but to explain and redeem dumb shit in the prequels
 
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TableBeRound

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Oct 21, 2019
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In the Darth Plagues novel it's shown that Plagues was the one who planted the idea of raising a clone army into Dias's head (with Palpatine being the one who planted it in Plagues's head) and provided him with the initial funds to start it.
Wait, according to the old canon Plagueis was still alive around the time of TPM? Then how come Palpatine told Anakin about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise like it was a "thing" that people would know about?

The Kaminoans would have no idea that Sifo Dyas, a Jedi Master who sits on the council, was working on his own and no reason to assume his request was against the wishes of the council.

Well Palpatine quickly assumed control over the project and began funding it, you wouldn't just pay for the entire thing upfront.
To me it seems like the Kaminoans are bad at business then.
Also, wouldn't you have to pay in advance for something on that kind of scale?
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,704
Wait, according to the old canon Plagueis was still alive around the time of TPM? Then how come Palpatine told Anakin about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise like it was a "thing" that people would know about?



To me it seems like the Kaminoans are bad at business then.
Also, wouldn't you have to pay in advance for something on that kind of scale?
This is why Kaminoans barely got work because they suck at the business thing
 

Fatoy

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Mar 13, 2019
1,486
Wait, according to the old canon Plagueis was still alive around the time of TPM? Then how come Palpatine told Anakin about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise like it was a "thing" that people would know about?
If I'm being charitable, it's because Palpatine knew it was a story only he knew, so he could frame it as a "secret ancient legend".

If I'm being accurate, it's because George Lucas isn't a very good writer.
 

Zocano

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Oct 26, 2017
855
I just assume any banking organization is run by the Hutts even when not mentioned.
 

Principate

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Oct 31, 2017
7,281
Wait, according to the old canon Plagueis was still alive around the time of TPM? Then how come Palpatine told Anakin about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise like it was a "thing" that people would know about?



To me it seems like the Kaminoans are bad at business then.
Also, wouldn't you have to pay in advance for something on that kind of scale?
I mean it was obvious Palpatine was bullshitting even then, and even Anakin knew. He was the apprentice which stands to reason that Plagueis didn't actually die all that long go.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,827
Just rewatched AotC recently with the kids with our slow watch toward RoS, and something came back to mind that I always wondered:

Why do the Council (and the Republic) place their faith on a clone army created under super shady circumstances, when it is even made plainly obvious (via Obi Wan following him) that the main template for said army (Jango Fett) is working for count Dooku and the Separatists -at the same time-.

That never made sense to me, and I was just reminded of it. Just couldn't make it work in my mind, and I tried.
Did I miss something?
Also, why was this random bounty hunter chosen as the template for the Republic's new army in the first place?
 

MetatronM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,815
That's just one part of one episode in the Auralnauts Star Wars saga.


Dance of the Fates is just as rad in the first episode!

(it's Star Wars, but the Jedi are dirtbags who live to party and the Sith are just trying to run a wholesome family-oriented business empire)

(mostly)

(they've done six episodes covering six films and they've managed to tell a consistently good story with worldbuilding, character arcs, serious drama, and a villain so powerful they may have become canon)
Auralnauts is by far the best way to experience the prequels. Their version of Attack of the Clones is A+ and includes (a shorter version of) this amazing sequence:

 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,281
Also, why was this random bounty hunter chosen as the template for the Republic's new army in the first place?
Who know really, obviously it's because a certain character was popular, but maybe he was a good specimen. Maybe because jango was considered the best mercenary in the galaxy.
 

supervga

Storyboard Artist - Netflix
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Oct 27, 2017
883
So apparently, Sifo Dyas was on the Jedi Council around the time of the Naboo Invasion or just before, and ordered the army of his own volition. It was his idea because he had a Jedi vision and saw there would be a big war, so he thought the Jedi should raise an army. Yoda, Mace and the rest of the council told him to quit smoking crack and explicitly NOT to raise an army. Sifo went to Kamino and ordered one anyway.
I wonder how big the down payment was for that order, is there a Wookieepedia entry for that?
What am I saying, there is probably a whole episode about the cheque bouncing /trying to make money from selling midichlorians shenanigans in the Clone Wars show.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,147
England
I just watched that episode, Syfo Dias I believe foresaw some big conflict and wanted to create an army, it was pretty vague, no idea how he came to the idea to make a clone army.

Palatine was responsible for the Order 66 chip in them which at some point malfunctioned and activated at one of the clones prematurely, that chip later was extracted to and most likely used as a template for one that worked, I think. The show stopped at that point.

Question is though if Palatine made new clones with the template or did he alter the existing clones somehow.
Yeah, as I recall the Jedi Council laughed him out the building when he suggested using an army to combat the threat he foresaw and just did it in secret instead.

Which really just shows you how stupid the Council was because not only did they think he'd just drop it because they told him to, but they also ignored a vision from the guy whose visions literally always came true.
 

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,779
Didn't realise Order 66 was carried out using chips in the clones, I always assumed it was just a secret order they all knew about and, being loyal soldiers, would follow when told to.
I really disliked that aspect introduced into the clone wars cartoon. I mean it makes sense in terms of the show (they want the clones to remain likable) but not in the context of ROTS.

There's a lot of concepts introduced in the Clone Wars show that actually hinder the ideas of the PT trilogy a bit imo.
 

sphagnum

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Oct 25, 2017
11,072
Sifo-Dyas was Dooku's old friend from their padawan days. Sifo gained a reputation as a mystic, but possibly a nutcase, because of his constantly recurring apocalyptic visions. He eventually "got better" and made his way to the Council. However, the visions started returning again prior to TPM and he was dismissed from the Council due to his "delusions" about an upcoming war.

Dooku had already left the Order for decades due to issues with his family and home world, and his general conflicts with Jedi teachings, and had fallen under Palpatine's sway as a back-up apprentice. When the time came, he re-befriended the disgraced Sifo and convinced him to create the clone army, then had him assassinated by pirates.

Sources: TCW and Dooku: Jedi Lost.
 
Oct 28, 2017
8,273
So I was looking around Wookieepedia and I was shocked to learn that Sifo-Dias, a Jedi, really did order the creation of the clone army as the Kaminoans claimed. For 17 years I thought that Palpatine had the guy killed and then posed as him to order the clones but no. Instead, Dooku went to Kamino after the fact and gave them a biochip (Order 66) to be implanted into all the clones. Am I the only one who didn't now this was the case?
I did not know that at all. I also expected more of a payoff for setting up a plot line that appeared to start during the first movie. "It was I who allowed the Jedi to have a army. It was according to my doing"


I think I need to watch Clone Wars.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,696
Spain
Wait, according to the old canon Plagueis was still alive around the time of TPM? Then how come Palpatine told Anakin about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise like it was a "thing" that people would know about?



To me it seems like the Kaminoans are bad at business then.
Also, wouldn't you have to pay in advance for something on that kind of scale?
I'm pretry sure Palpatine is lying to Anakin in that scene...
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,947
Just because he didn’t literally personally do it doesn’t mean he didn’t really do it. That’s like the Trump defense basically.
 

Deleted member 56580

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So I was looking around Wookieepedia and I was shocked to learn that Sifo-Dias, a Jedi, really did order the creation of the clone army as the Kaminoans claimed. For 17 years I thought that Palpatine had the guy killed and then posed as him to order the clones but no. Instead, Dooku went to Kamino after the fact and gave them a biochip (Order 66) to be implanted into all the clones. Am I the only one who didn't now this was the case?
Thats correct, in Fallen Order its pretty much told straight up that the clones actually went haywire and were never supposed to be "bad"
 

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,779
I think several episodes of Clone Wars covered this. Someone with more knowledge can correct me. IIRC whoever commissioned the clones secured a loan from the "Banking clan," (the show implied all large business deals and credit transfers were controlled by a single family) and during the war the clan threatened to call in the loan during a bad time for the Republic. Long story short Separatists, under Dooku and unofficially Palpatine/Sidious, get involved and try to take control of the clan only for Chancellor Palpatine to offer the clan protection if the loan was considered paid. They agreed. So essentially not only did Palpatine get the army for free, he also assumed control of most of the money in the galaxy.
 

Btmmayor

Member
Jun 4, 2018
30
Just rewatched AotC recently with the kids with our slow watch toward RoS, and something came back to mind that I always wondered:

Why do the Council (and the Republic) place their faith on a clone army created under super shady circumstances, when it is even made plainly obvious (via Obi Wan following him) that the main template for said army (Jango Fett) is working for count Dooku and the Separatists -at the same time-.

That never made sense to me, and I was just reminded of it. Just couldn't make it work in my mind, and I tried.
Did I miss something?
From the second I saw this on the big screen I thought the same thing. “Here is an army obi-wan just found, some jedi are in trouble on Geonosis.....alright, what the heck. Lets grab these clones and go start a war.”
 

Starfire22

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May 5, 2018
2,015
Oklahoma
Syfo-Diaz technically placed the order, but was killed before it could be realized. Tyrannus (Dooku) and Palpatine took advantage of the situation.

To my knowledge anyway.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,448
Still blows my mind that a single person can go and be like, "yeah I'd like to order an army."

"Credit or debit?"
A big enough army to wage a galaxy wide war that helps create the Empire and subjugate all systems under new Imperial leadership. And the Jedi were clueless to it, despite one of the members creating it.

Why is no one watching those Kaminoans?
 

Hystzen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
972
Manchester UK
Why did Dooku have two titles and his second title is completely pointless. The whole Darth Tyrannus shit is waste of breath being uttered in a sentence as it amounts to nothing. When Christopher Lee pops up at end of AoTC they even greet him as Count Dooku not even Darth Tyrannus.

so what was the point
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,392
A big enough army to wage a galaxy wide war that helps create the Empire and subjugate all systems under new Imperial leadership. And the Jedi were clueless to it, despite one of the members creating it.

Why is no one watching those Kaminoans?
Well they couldn't watch a place they didn't know existed, Obi Wan spent a whole movie trying to find the place cause it was deleted from the archives. Sifo Dyas hid what he was doing with Kamino from the jedi cause he knew they would object, they already kicked him off the council cause he wouldn't shut up about his visions of war and armies.