Smogon has released its current OU and UU Tiers for Pokemon Sword and Shield (SPOILERS)

Blade24070

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,557
I yearn for the day when the grass starter is the focus of Gamefreak’s attention... so I’ll be waiting forever.

Anyway, I’m rather surprised to see Toxtricity. The tier is based on usage, not viability, so I imagine that’s likely why. I mean, I love it, but any ground type move would end its career immediately.
 

Ramsay

Member
Jul 2, 2019
783
Australia
As someone who noped out at the game before release but is generally interested in comp Pokemon, why is that exactly?

Because I had arguments of how it looks inbalanced and snowbally with people here, but they said I was talking mad shit and don't know what I'm talking about.
From another thread:

There are five fatal flaws with the mechanic:
  • Firstly, the advantage that Dynamax gives, in theory, should be relatively similar between each Pokemon. In practice, the fact that all status moves turn into what is effectively Protect means that defensive Pokemon are weaker while Dynamaxed then they are normally, as they can't use status moves to set up hazards, deal residual damage, lower (or nullify) stats, or recover - which are absolutely essential to any sort defensive Pokemon. Their only option is to use Protect, or use a weak offensive move that any remotely bulky Pokemon can outright wall.

  • On the other hand, offensive Pokemon get pretty much everything they could have wished for. Not only do Max moves have a very high base power (around 130-140), but you are able to use hold items while Dynamaxed. This leads to utterly stupid stuff such as having Max Moves hit as hard as Z-Moves in Gen 7 with a Life Orb, only now, you get to use said Z-moves 3 times!

  • Since Dynamax doesn't need a hold item to be used, unlike Z-moves and Mega Evolutions where you had to commit a Pokemon as your Z-Move/Mega Evolution abuser, you do not need to commit a Pokemon to use Dynamax. As a result, removing Dynamax as a threat to your team is extremely difficult. In Gens 6 or 7, if you made a good prediction, you can KO the opponent's Z-Move/Mega Evolution abuser on the switch-in, and remove that mechanic as a threat entirely. You cannot do this with Dynamaxing. If you KO, say, your opponent's Gyarados, you aren't out of the clear by any means - your opponent still has Excadrill, Barraskewda, or Hawlucha that can Dynamax and completely screw you over. This makes Gen 8 competitive reliant on prediction to an absurd degree - as guessing which one of the aforementioned four Pokemon that your opponent will Dynamax is effectively a coin-flip at best, where (thanks to the next issue) the punishment for guessing wrong is often an guaranteed loss.

  • Even worse, Max Moves have secondary effects. These range from stat drops (annoying, but manageable), to terrain and setting up weather (if Barraskewda sets up Rain with Max Geyser, you're screwed), to stat boosts. The stat boosts are particularly problematic, as they can stack - the most notorious examples of which is Max Airstream from Gyarados, which is pretty much Dragon Dance with 130 base power and STAB, or Hawlucha, which gets STAB Max Knuckle and Max Airstream, coupled with 118 base Speed with a +2 boost from Unburden. It's incredibly easy for a Dynamaxed Pokemon to snowball out of control as it accumulates boosts. For instance, if you get in your Hawlucha check, in anticipation of having it Dynamax, then your opponent can simply switch in to Gyarados (or Excadrill), boost or Dynamax and get a boost while you switch out, then sweep your team while it is Dynamaxed. When the Dynamax ends, you still have to face a Gyarados at +3 Attack and +2 Speed.

  • Gamefreak, for some unholy reason, decided to remove most forms of counterplay to typical sweepers for Dynamaxing. Protect/Substitute doesn't work because the Dynamaxed Pokemon is still accumulating boosts. Red Card and phasing doesn't work as Dynamaxed Pokemon cannot be forcibly switched out. Switching in a defensive Pokemon to Dynamax as a defensive measure is incredibly risky as not only it the opportunity cost of doing so incredibly high (you lose out on your own chance to sweep your opponent with Gyarados or Hawlucha), but chances are that your opponent already has a boost by the time your defensive Pokemon is on the field (again, this presents another prediction that is heavily weighted in favor of the Dynamax user). Dynamax removes the Choice lock, so that if you switch in a Toxapex against your opponent's Scarfed Galarian Darmanitan locked into Flare Blitz, it can simply Dynamax, remove the Choice lock, use Earthquake and KO Toxapex in return. Similarly, the HP boost makes it difficult to revenge kill a Dynamax abuser (Rotom-Wash's Thunderbolt fails to OHKO Dynamax Gyarados, and is OHKO'd in return with Power Whip even without a boost).
For all of these reasons, almost every playstyle that isn't hyper offense is severely weakened - and stall, in particular, is all but invalidated, because even a strong defensive Pokemon such as Toxapex or Ferrothorn cannot withstand a +2 Attack Gyarados or Hawlucha throwing out what is effectively Z-moves. Likewise, banning key abusers won't do much to help - if you ban Hawlucha for instance, there's Togekiss waiting in the wings with Max Airstream to boost Speed and flinch opponents to death.

As such, almost every competitive match that I've seen or played ended up going to the person who was able to Dynamax their abuser first.
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
805
Mimikyu is probably gonna drop back to UU when new gen hype washes through. The disguise nerfed actually murder any potential that it had. Corviknight and Bisharp are dead when Dynamax is banned. Bisharp might fall to NU, no Knock Off has killed my favorite chess piece.

Dugtrio is dead the minute Arena Trap is banned, good riddance.
 

Razmos

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,112
Cinderace has 2 exclusive signature moves and an overpowered hidden ability? I hate blatant favouritism when it comes to starter balance
 

Aurongel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,441
"Half the roster, double the cancer"

You know what? I don't really need to give these basement-dwelling channers the click so I'm not going to.
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
805
Lack of Pursuit hurts the game so much. Tyranitar loses so much momentum due to the fact that it can't punish overplays or aggressive doubles anymore. Brainless Dragapult offense is going to be the name of the game, because you can't punish it.
 

Zombegoast

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
5,502
So my Jolly Sirfech'd let to nothing.

Next thing you're going to tell me Mr Rime is also bad with Hatterene somehow being better.
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
805
So my Jolly Sirfech'd let to nothing.

Next thing you're going to tell me Mr Rime is also bad with Hatterene somehow being better.
Sirfetch'd had no chance of cracking OU. It's strong, but there are a million other pokemon that are strong too that manage to be in a decent speed tier.

Mr. Rime is really bad, but it's not like Hatterene is good either. It's going to drop.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,624
So my Jolly Sirfech'd let to nothing.

Next thing you're going to tell me Mr Rime is also bad with Hatterene somehow being better.
Sirfetch’d is OK for trick room doubles, these are just people using the easiest strats for victory in singles, which is completely busted anyway because GF no longer really takes singles into account.

Trick Room is also fun because it cripples most standard teams you face online.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,898
Canada
Sirfetch’d is OK for trick room doubles, these are just people using the easiest strats for victory in singles, which is completely busted anyway because GF no longer really takes singles into account.
which is kind of super dumb of them when the majority of the single player is singles battles and that's what the majority of people know how to play

man imagine if they had went the Colosseum route with these games and had everything be doubles. the raihan battle is the best fight in the game.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,301
which is kind of super dumb of them when the majority of the single player is singles battles and that's what the majority of people know how to play

man imagine if they had went the Colosseum route with these games and had everything be doubles. the raihan battle is the best fight in the game.
It’s not dumb because doubles are superior in every way
Singles are still the main way to battle in the games because they are simpler, I don’t think it’s contradictory
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
805
which is kind of super dumb of them when the majority of the single player is singles battles and that's what the majority of people know how to play

man imagine if they had went the Colosseum route with these games and had everything be doubles. the raihan battle is the best fight in the game.
Doubles is also significantly easier to balance for, so I'm seriously not understanding why the main game isn't all double battles. Oh well.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,550
I know nothing about this stuff but I'm happy for King Grim and Queen Hat.
 

Jahranimo

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,590
Yeah as I'm making some mons for competitive, this is the right ones I've noticed being really good.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,898
Canada
It’s not dumb because doubles are superior in every way
Singles are still the main way to battle in the games because they are simpler, I don’t think it’s contradictory
it is dumb when the game doesn't teach you anything about how to battle in doubles and the official competitive format is doubles\

singles should only be the format in the early game
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,801
it is dumb when the game doesn't teach you anything about how to battle in doubles and the official competitive format is doubles\

singles should only be the format in the early game
In fairness the game doesn't really teach you how to battle in singles on anything even remotely approaching a competitive level either
 

KillstealWolf

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,602
it is dumb when the game doesn't teach you anything about how to battle in doubles and the official competitive format is doubles\

singles should only be the format in the early game
Raihan tried at least, having his gym be Double Battles and him using Weather Tactics.

Poor Raihan, should have been him to be the champion and teach kids instead of Leon who teaches people to use the wrong competitive version of Charizard.
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
805
You know what. I miss the genies.

They were like a good friend that might get into some pretty hairy situations, but they were hella cool and didn't mind paying for lunch every now and then.
 

Busaiku

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,694
I yearn for the day when the grass starter is the focus of Gamefreak’s attention... so I’ll be waiting forever.

Anyway, I’m rather surprised to see Toxtricity. The tier is based on usage, not viability, so I imagine that’s likely why. I mean, I love it, but any ground type move would end its career immediately.
There's Sceptile.
Meganium too, kind of.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,301
In fairness the game doesn't really teach you how to battle in singles on anything even remotely approaching a competitive level either
This lol
Raihan tried at least, having his gym be Double Battles and him using Weather Tactics.

Poor Raihan, should have been him to be the champion and teach kids instead of Leon who teaches people to use the wrong competitive version of Charizard.
Also this
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,898
Canada
In fairness the game doesn't really teach you how to battle in singles on anything even remotely approaching a competitive level either
that's what makes it even worse lol

like they're bad at teaching fundamentals even in the simplest format after 23 years

Raihan tried at least, having his gym be Double Battles and him using Weather Tactics.

Poor Raihan, should have been him to be the champion and teach kids instead of Leon who teaches people to use the wrong competitive version of Charizard.
agreed
 

Luke88

Member
Dec 29, 2018
671
As a fellow Ferrothorn user I second the sentiment that Hidden Power being gone is extremely positive for the metagame. Now if only Silvally wasn't there...
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,801
that's what makes it even worse lol

like they're bad at teaching fundamentals even in the simplest format after 23 years
thinking about it I can kind of understand since competitive Pokemon is ridiculously complex and relies heavily on matchup knowledge and understanding what threats certain Pokemon pose and how to get around them with your team, and that seems ridiculously difficult to program well into an AI in a way that feels fair and organic
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,801
Is there a good way to learn doubles?
I'd recommend watching this video where Wolfe Glick, former VGC world champion and arguably the most accomplished active vgc player teaching Alpharad the fundamentals of competitive using his own team. Wolfe's also got a bunch of videos talking about sets for individual pokemon as well as going over his teams, so he's a pretty good resource
 

kayos90

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,488
It seems like most competitive pokemon is played via doubles and not singles. Am I assuming wrong?
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
805
As a fellow Ferrothorn user I second the sentiment that Hidden Power being gone is extremely positive for the metagame. Now if only Silvally wasn't there...
I love Ferrothorn, but Ferrothorn has no counterplay. I don't even run Stealth Rocks anymore on my sets. Just Spikes/T-Wave/Knock/Seeds.

It kept Knock Off, of all mons. GameFreak really loves it.
 

Luke88

Member
Dec 29, 2018
671
I love Ferrothorn, but Ferrothorn has no counterplay. I don't even run Stealth Rocks anymore on my sets. Just Spikes/T-Wave/Knock/Seeds.

It kept Knock Off, of all mons. GameFreak really loves it.
Use Fire types. Honestly one of the worst aspects of competitive Pokémon is that certain typings aren't used that much because their moves are available to other Pokémon and people simply never use Ice types or Poison types (well not this gen since Toxtricity is here but you get where I come from)
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
805
Use Fire types. Honestly one of the worst aspects of competitive Pokémon is that certain typings aren't used that much because their moves are available to other Pokémon and people simply never use Ice types or Poison types (well not this gen since Toxtricity is here but you get where I come from)
Fire types can't keep switching in, with hazards up.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,624
which is kind of super dumb of them when the majority of the single player is singles battles and that's what the majority of people know how to play

man imagine if they had went the Colosseum route with these games and had everything be doubles. the raihan battle is the best fight in the game.
I'm actually playing through XD right now since I bought other games when it first came out and just never got around to getting it ever.

The GC games aren't super challenging or anything but they aren't as brain dead as the main series has been lately and they do force you to think about double battles strategies more and the comps actually do decent things on occasion, like having their Pokemon use swagger on their other Pokemon who has Own Tempo, for example.

This post was enlightening. I thought Dynamax was broken and awful before, but someone tried to tell me it was "objectively" better than Megas and stuff, and this proves my assumption that it's broken as hell.
Their idea behind dynamaxing was that it would be less predictable when or what Pokemon would be used for it, which is hilarious.
 

Solidus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
464
I'd recommend watching this video where Wolfe Glick, former VGC world champion and arguably the most accomplished active vgc player teaching Alpharad the fundamentals of competitive using his own team. Wolfe's also got a bunch of videos talking about sets for individual pokemon as well as going over his teams, so he's a pretty good resource
These are the fundamentals? As someone who has never glanced at competitive pokemon, it feels like he goes straight into some pretty complicated stuff and has a level of knowledge about the top (or probably all) pokemon that I'd never be able to achieve lol. Way over my head and kind of scares me away from getting into it, but impressive nonetheless.
 

Cromat

Member
Mar 17, 2019
433
With the exile of Chansey/Blissey and Zapdos, Tyranitar is now the new Elder of OU, having been part of the tier every generation since his introduction.
 

nanskee

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
2,867
Competitive pokemon *pukes*

I really wish this was actually good but after. X and y I started to think pokemon cards might be a better competitive game