Smash needs an indie representative. Who should it be?

Hailinel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,348
Oh, OK.

I still don't understand how shes important outside of Japan and Westerns who really like Japan.
Because she's one of the earliest breakout stars of that scene, has a prolific series ZUN still creates, and has spawned both official and unofficial games and media of all types over the course of decades.

Reimu is a legit icon.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
6,727
Brazil
Because she's one of the earliest breakout stars of that scene, has a prolific series ZUN still creates, and has spawned both official and unofficial games and media of all types over the course of decades.

Reimu is a legit icon.
The Reimu salt from the western fanbase would be gigantic though. Like Hero salt and Terry salt combined.

But she deserves to get in.
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
8,498
Because she's one of the earliest breakout stars of that scene, has a prolific series ZUN still creates, and has spawned both official and unofficial games and media of all types over the course of decades.

Reimu is a legit icon.
OK, but what relevance does she have to people outside of Japan (who aren't the kind of people who'd want to navigate the Touhou franchise)? It's all well and good to just say that "she's an icon," but if that is limited to a single country and a few very niche internet circles then, relatively, I can't see how she is that much of an icon.

That isn't "Western salt," or anything nonsensical like that, I just literally don't get it.
 

Hailinel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,348
OK, but what relevance does she have to people outside of Japan (who aren't the kind of people who'd want to navigate the Touhou franchise)? It's all well and good to just say that "she's an icon," but if that is limited to a single country and a few very niche internet circles then, relatively, I can't see how she is that much of an icon.

That isn't "Western salt," or anything nonsensical like that, I just literally don't get it.
There are people outside of Japan that have played these games, both the original bullet hell series and the various spinoffs. Some have even been released on console in the west, and on Steam.

And as stated above, Touhou was an influence on western devs and indie devs like Toby Fox.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
6,727
Brazil
OK, but what relevance does she have to people outside of Japan (who aren't the kind of people who'd want to navigate the Touhou franchise)? It's all well and good to just say that "she's an icon," but if that is limited to a single country and a few very niche internet circles then, relatively, I can't see how she is that much of an icon.

That isn't "Western salt," or anything nonsensical like that, I just literally don't get it.
She's a breakout retro star from the japanese indie PC scene. There's Touhou games on Switch, PS4 and Steam and the series has been in constant production since 1997. She's an icon in a genre that's not represented at all in Smash (bullet hell/shoot'em up), has 3 official fighting games under her belt for moveset potential, Touhou produces the most amount of fan content in the entire country of Japan every year. A lot of videogame composers have been inspired by Touhou and have arranged Touhou remixes.

I fail to see any other indie character more deserving than her, even if Touhou isn't as big on the west as it is in Japan.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
new jersey
OK, but what relevance does she have to people outside of Japan (who aren't the kind of people who'd want to navigate the Touhou franchise)? It's all well and good to just say that "she's an icon," but if that is limited to a single country and a few very niche internet circles then, relatively, I can't see how she is that much of an icon.

That isn't "Western salt," or anything nonsensical like that, I just literally don't get it.
She's relevant in many games in the west. Games like League of Legends and WoW have had Touhou references for years. Many indie devs also cite ZUN as an inspiration such as Toby Fox. That dude's probably one of the biggest Touhou fan ever. She isn't also limited to a single country -- Touhou is pretty damn popular in other Asian countries, too. Last year a newly discovered flower was named after Reimu in China. Yeah, it's true that Reimu isn't huge in the west but she's definitely recognizable from Touhou's massive influence on internet culture in the west. Touhou is more known for its music here than the games (for good reasons).

To some, Touhou is what an indie franchise can be if held with tight creative control. It's also a great starting place for hobby developers, artists, and muscians. ZUN has very lax policies that let anyone make fanworks on his franchise. The whole point of doing this is keep the 'doujin spirit' (ZUN's words) alive and empower others. The Touhou fanbase's sheer creativity is something to behold. I don't think any other game fanbase can match them.
 
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Castile

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
3,997
To some, Touhou is what an indie franchise can be if held with tight creative control. It's also a great starting place for hobby developers, artists, and muscians. ZUN has very lax policies that let anyone make fanworks on his franchise. The whole point of doing this is keep the 'doujin spirit' (ZUN's words) alive and empower others. The Touhou fanbase's sheer creativity is something to behold. I don't think any other game fanbase can match them.
Yeah, by now we have Touhou game of every genre. That just shows how dedicated fans are to the series.

Fighting:https://youtu.be/nT1N7v_MmJ4

Horror:https://youtu.be/NJhtAvmmKoE

Sport:https://youtu.be/vKFXhxVvysE

Sidescroller:https://youtu.be/0DDgAAyhlbs

Metroidvania:https://youtu.be/x9tuFyqvWO4

Racing: https://youtu.be/YYuflDAYRFE

And many more that I'm too lazy to list.
 

o Tesseract

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,138
All y'all saying Hollow Knight make me sad.

The REAL answer is Shovel Knight, and it's such a shame that he was added only as an assist trophy. Awesome that he's in it at all, but he had so much potential for a great moveset.
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
8,498
There are people outside of Japan that have played these games, both the original bullet hell series and the various spinoffs. Some have even been released on console in the west, and on Steam.

And as stated above, Touhou was an influence on western devs and indie devs like Toby Fox.
There are people outside of Japan who have played most every Japanese-only or Japanese-focused game. That doesn't make those games iconic or even well-recognised to people outside of Japan. You've got to remember that Smash isn't just played by Era members, it's played by millions of people of whom most will have never set foot on a dedicated internet gaming forum. Having a single spin-off game on Switch or a bunch of confusingly-named (and often not even translated) titles on Steam does not put Touhou even close to the kind of availability for most Smash franchises. Terry's mainline games could be bought in a sale on the front page of the eshop minutes after his release, Joker's game is available at your local Gamestop, and most of Hero's games are/were easily available on the platforms they resided on; Reimu's mainline games can be found... somewhere. I honestly don't know and that's coming from someone who's willing to at least Google it.

As for being influential: influencing a number of composers and creating a massive amount of fan work is incredibly comendable but, again, what meaning do those things have towards the wider world of gaming instead of just Touhou? We live in a world where My Little Pony can generate enough fan work to swallow the sun itself; fandom and the insanity that comes with it is not exactly that 'special' in my eyes.

I'm not denying that Reimu isn't a massive character to a lot of people, but for someone like myself it really feels like I'm just being told that "Reimu is an icon," instead of being allowed to come to that conclusion for myself. That's never happened before with a Smash character. But maybe that's the stupid Gaijin in me speaking, I don't know.

I also think her design would alienate a lot of people. The 'Kawaii Young Girl in a Lolita Dress' anime aesthetic is inherently off-putting to many and would simply not come across all that well when placed along side the rest of the roster. There's definitely a 'bubble' factor going on here imo.
 

Garrod_Ran

Member
Mar 23, 2018
2,979
I also think her design would alienate a lot of people. The 'Kawaii Young Girl in a Lolita Dress' anime aesthetic is inherently off-putting to many and would simply not come across all that well when placed along side the rest of the roster. There's definitely a 'bubble' factor going on here imo.
Reimu is like 25 at this point in the games
she's also not in a lolita dress lmao
it's a stylized shrine maiden uniform
 

Hailinel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,348
There are people outside of Japan who have played most every Japanese-only or Japanese-focused game. That doesn't make those games iconic or even well-recognised to people outside of Japan. You've got to remember that Smash isn't just played by Era members, it's played by millions of people of whom most will have never set foot on a dedicated internet gaming forum. Having a single spin-off game on Switch or a bunch of confusingly-named (and often not even translated) titles on Steam does not put Touhou even close to the kind of availability for most Smash franchises. Terry's mainline games could be bought in a sale on the front page of the eshop minutes after his release, Joker's game is available at your local Gamestop, and most of Hero's games are/were easily available on the platforms they resided on; Reimu's mainline games can be found... somewhere. I honestly don't know and that's coming from someone who's willing to at least Google it.

As for being influential: influencing a number of composers and creating a massive amount of fan work is incredibly comendable but, again, what meaning do those things have towards the wider world of gaming instead of just Touhou? We live in a world where My Little Pony can generate enough fan work to swallow the sun itself; fandom and the insanity that comes with it is not exactly that 'special' in my eyes.

I'm not denying that Reimu isn't a massive character to a lot of people, but for someone like myself it really feels like I'm just being told that "Reimu is an icon," instead of being allowed to come to that conclusion for myself. That's never happened before with a Smash character. But maybe that's the stupid Gaijin in me speaking, I don't know.
You asked, and people gave you responses as to why. Some more complete and descriptive than I could when I typed mine up on the phone during a bus ride. How else would you prefer to be educated on the subject?

I also think her design would alienate a lot of people. The 'Kawaii Young Girl in a Lolita Dress' anime aesthetic is inherently off-putting to many and would simply not come across all that well when placed along side the rest of the roster. There's definitely a 'bubble' factor going on here imo.
I wasn't aware that stylized shrine maiden attire was a "lolita dress" (spoiler alert: It's not).

Also, having friends that are very into the aesthetic and like dressing in lolita fashion, haters that hate purely based on her appearance are not worth listening to. You might as well exchange "Kawaii Young Girl" with "Anime Swordsman," "Cartoon Animal", "Fighting game character" or "Pokemon." Every choice is going to have detractors that whine about the character aesthetic and style.
 

Castile

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
3,997
Reimu's mainline games can be found... somewhere. I honestly don't know and that's coming from someone who's willing to at least Google it
Since Touhou 14, they have been available on steam. As for the switch the mainline game Antimony of Common Flowers will be releasing next year.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
new jersey
There are people outside of Japan who have played most every Japanese-only or Japanese-focused game. That doesn't make those games iconic or even well-recognised to people outside of Japan. You've got to remember that Smash isn't just played by Era members, it's played by millions of people of whom most will have never set foot on a dedicated internet gaming forum. Having a single spin-off game on Switch or a bunch of confusingly-named (and often not even translated) titles on Steam does not put Touhou even close to the kind of availability for most Smash franchises. Terry's mainline games could be bought in a sale on the front page of the eshop minutes after his release, Joker's game is available at your local Gamestop, and most of Hero's games are/were easily available on the platforms they resided on; Reimu's mainline games can be found... somewhere. I honestly don't know and that's coming from someone who's willing to at least Google it.

As for being influential: influencing a number of composers and creating a massive amount of fan work is incredibly comendable but, again, what meaning do those things have towards the wider world of gaming instead of just Touhou? We live in a world where My Little Pony can generate enough fan work to swallow the sun itself; fandom and the insanity that comes with it is not exactly that 'special' in my eyes.

I'm not denying that Reimu isn't a massive character to a lot of people, but for someone like myself it really feels like I'm just being told that "Reimu is an icon," instead of being allowed to come to that conclusion for myself. That's never happened before with a Smash character. But maybe that's the stupid Gaijin in me speaking, I don't know.

I also think her design would alienate a lot of people. The 'Kawaii Young Girl in a Lolita Dress' anime aesthetic is inherently off-putting to many and would simply not come across all that well when placed along side the rest of the roster. There's definitely a 'bubble' factor going on here imo.
You can easily find Touhou games on the eShop, on Steam, or even on Gamestop. Yeah, her mainline games will forever be PC exclusives but that's OK. Also, there's an official Touhou fighting game coming to the Switch. The excuse that they are 'somewhere' isn't valid anymore. Maybe in 2013. We're telling you Reimu is an icon by providing examples, which feels like you're just ignoring. Just because the character doesn't cater to Americans doesn't mean they can't be in. Touhou's special due to its sheer dedication from its creator and fanbase. It's a massive thing in the east.

Also, Reimu is NOT a 'Kawaii Young Girl in a Lolita Dress' anime aesthetic'. If anything Touhou goes against alot of Japanese-anime girl tropes. Most characters in it are pretty tomboyish and crass. She's dressed in tradtional shrine maiden garb (a real occupation) and her character is anything but kawaii. She's like 20~ in the main games, regularly drinks alcohol (she had a drunken dream in the latest manga), and has a straight personality. She doesn't act cutesy or anything, she's straight to the point about her duties: killing fuckin' yokai. If it was up to her, she'd drink sake all day at her shrine nobody goes too.
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
8,498
You asked, and people gave you responses as to why. Some more complete and descriptive than I could when I typed mine up on the phone during a bus ride. How else would you prefer to be educated on the subject?
You can easily find Touhou games on the eShop, on Steam, or even on Gamestop. Yeah, her mainline games will forever be PC exclusives but that's OK. Also, there's an official Touhou fighting game coming to the Switch. The excuse that they are 'somewhere' isn't valid anymore. Maybe in 2013. We're telling you Reimu is an icon by providing examples, which feels like you're just ignoring. Just because the character doesn't cater to Americans doesn't mean they can't be in.
You shouldn't need to be 'educated on the subject' to be understanding of a character's significance, it should be evident simply by the evidence that one can easily find. For instance you've had to literally send me direct links to direct Touhou searches for me to know that there are games outside of PC: that, to me, does not point to her being an iconic character but to the fact that, yes, she features in some games on those platforms.

Basically I'm saying that if I, someone who has been a part of the gaming community all my life and actively seeks out indie titles both small and large, have to be told who "Reimu" is, what her games are and where I can even find them then I simply cannot see that character as iconic. That's not an issue I had with Terry, Joker or Hero despite none of those characters being catered towards "Americans," yet here I definitely have that issue with Reimu/Touhou.

Also I'm not even American lol

Reimu is like 25 at this point in the games
she's also not in a lolita dress lmao
it's a stylized shrine maiden uniform
Also, Reimu is NOT a 'Kawaii Young Girl in a Lolita Dress' anime aesthetic'. She's dressed in tradtional shrine maiden garb (a real occupation) and her character is anything but kawaii. She's like 20~ in the main games, regularly drinks alcohol (she had a drunken dream in the latest manga), and has a straight personality. She doesn't act cutesy or anything, she's straight to the point about her duties: killing fuckin' yokai. If it was up to her, she'd drink sake all day at her shrine nobody goes too.
"This character that looks like she's 16 at most is actually a 25 year old alcoholic," ain't gonna cut it for most people and the same goes for "actually this is a stylised shrine maiden uniform and not a lolita outfit," If you need to point out that your anime protagonist isn't what they looks like at first glance (and that's to someone like me who actually has some knowledge of the scene) then that's on the character themselves and not the person.

I wasn't aware that stylized shrine maiden attire was a "lolita dress" (spoiler alert: It's not).

Also, having friends that are very into the aesthetic and like dressing in lolita fashion, haters that hate purely based on her appearance are not worth listening to. You might as well exchange "Kawaii Young Girl" with "Anime Swordsman," "Cartoon Animal", "Fighting game character" or "Pokemon." Every choice is going to have detractors that whine about the character aesthetic and style.
This is the kind of bubble thinking I was speaking of, the kind that leads to comparisons between an aesthetic that creates cover art that looks like this:



to something as universal as Pokemon as if they both have the same level of cultural acceptance. and acknowledgement.
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,047
I personally can’t stand Touhou designs but Smash has a serious lack of Small Cute Female Characters and that sucks

like, the closest thing is Isabelle, and she’s a damn dog
 

Hailinel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,348
You shouldn't need to be 'educated on the subject' to be understanding of a character's significance, it should be evident simply by the evidence that one can easily find. For instance you've had to literally send me direct links to direct Touhou searches for me to know that there are games outside of PC: that, to me, does not point to her being an iconic character but to the fact that, yes, she features in some games on those platforms.

Basically I'm saying that if I, someone who has been a part of the gaming community all my life and actively seeks out indie titles both small and large, have to be told who "Reimu" is, what her games are and where I can even find them then I simply cannot see that character as iconic. That's not an issue I had with Terry, Joker or Hero despite none of those characters being catered towards "Americans," yet here I definitely have that issue with Reimu/Touhou.

Also I'm not even American lol
At this point, you just sound like you're trying extremely hard to deny evidence of reality. "I've never heard of Reimu, so how popular and influential can she and her series truly be?" Also...

"This character that looks like she's 16 at most is actually a 25 year old alcoholic," ain't gonna cut it for most people and the same goes for "actually this is a stylised shrine maiden uniform and not a lolita outfit," If you need to point out that your anime protagonist isn't what they looks like at first glance (and that's to someone like me who actually has some knowledge of the scene) then that's on the character themselves and not the person.



This is the kind of bubble thinking I was speaking of, the kind that leads to comparisons between an aesthetic that creates cover art that looks like this:



to something as universal as Pokemon as if they both have the same level of cultural acceptance. and acknowledgement.
OK...? If you personally don't like the aesthetic, that's one thing. I get that. But trying to argue that there would be a sizable backlash (that doesn't come off as ignorant or foolish as was the case for some of the reactions to Terry) because Reimu is a cute shrine maiden is both selling her and the Touhou franchise short, and making a gigantic assumption that her reception would be predominantly negative in some "1000 year old dragon loli" sense, which is just absurd.
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,022
This is the kind of bubble thinking I was speaking of, the kind that leads to comparisons between an aesthetic that creates cover art that looks like this:



to something as universal as Pokemon as if they both have the same level of cultural acceptance. and acknowledgement.
I can't tell what point you're trying to make by posting one of the worst examples of Touhou fan game art.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
6,727
Brazil
If you've been around gaming circles since the 00's not hearing anything about Touhou is on you at this point tbh

 

Sadnarav

Member
Nov 6, 2019
294
I wouldn't mind if the whole second pack of DLC character are character from indie games. The idea that indie games "don't deserve" to be in Smash is kinda gross to me
 

kirby_fox

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,381
Midwest USA
Let Tohou gain some more ground in the West and include Reimu.

Quote is the only other option because Cave Story is awesome.

Shovel Knight and Shantae are most likely to get upgraded to playable, Sans not too far behind. Unless Travis Touchdown counts for real, then it'll be him.
 

Kiro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,119
Ottawa, Canada
Sans, Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, Celeste and Shantae would be Indie DLC Fighter Pass.

But Sans deserves it more than any of them and I never played Undertale, he is famous beyond video games now.
 
Nov 8, 2017
425
Shovel Knight, otherwise the Knight from Hollow Knight. I’m sure this was said 100 times already but there is no other answer.