Since it's November, annual reminder: Thanksgiving is a problematic holiday, "celebrates a myth of colonialism and white proprietorship of the U.S."

Nov 1, 2017
718
This sort of attitude is precisely why you should be reminded at every opportunity that you're celebrating the extermination of the indigenous population.

I hope you all have a miserable Thanksgiving.
It's weird how people are so defensive. Coming in saying "It's not about what happened to those people I just want to celebrate the holiday that's one of many methods used to undersell how horrid First Nations people have been and are continuously treated in America and i fell attacked."

Like yeah people are going to judge because that's an incredibly selfish mentality. Hell if you don't want to talk about the negative things, what about mentioning to your family some of the amazing people from those groups as part of your tradition? Or as was mentioned earlier incorporate giving to an organization that does work on behalf of them? Both of these things would take you maybe 15 minutes or less. Unless you and your family had a really good discussion which would be awesome.
 

Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,783
Thanksgiving really does celebrate a myth. I know many of us do not use this holiday to celebrate the horrific origins, but it doesn't change the fact that we're using a tainted holiday for our benefit. Honestly, I couldn't really argue against it going away in favor of a new holiday celebrating family and togetherness, but at the same time, the existence of Thanksgiving can be used similar to how the OP is using it, as a reminder of horrific events. I'd still like to have a holiday around this time, as seasonal depression starts around now and getting that kickoff to the holidays can help somewhat, but that's purely selfish on my part.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
9,896
It's weird how people are so defensive. Coming in saying "It's not about what happened to those people I just want to celebrate the holiday that's one of many methods used to undersell how horrid First Nations people have been and are continuously treated in America and i fell attacked."
I feel like you’re assigning an attitude to my post that isn’t actually there.

There have been attempts to replace Thanksgiving with something more representative of the actual treatment of the First Nations. They generally fail because it’s hard to convince people to replace a widely celebrated day of community and feasting with a day of atonement and fasting. The best thing you can do is convince people to acknowledge the history of American genocide on that date... Which many of us do.

Recognizing Thanksgiving has a problematic history as a whitewashing tool of genocide is good. But at the end of the day, it’s easier to divorce the modern celebration of the holiday from its historical roots (Which as I mentioned, most people already have) and educate people on the full unfiltered history of American colonization on a daily basis (which most sadly have not) than to remove it.
 
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RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,303
This sort of attitude is precisely why you should be reminded at every opportunity that you're celebrating the extermination of the indigenous population.

I hope you all have a miserable Thanksgiving.
Forget this attitude.

I hope everyone has the best Thanksgiving, or whatever they celebrate. World is full of shit, it doesn’t need people wishing misery on others just trying to be with family/friends.
 

Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,396
So Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas are all problematic and we should feel shame for celebrating them in this hell hole of a planet

got it, thanks OP. Lookin forward to the Valentine’s Day thread where we tackle its corporate capitalism of love and why showing affection is problematic
Have you ever seen The Happening? Why is Arbol Day still a thing after that?
 

Diablos

has a title.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,719
This is why I only celebrate Black Friday now.
Ah yes, shoppers waiting in line for hours, some have tents and portable toilets even... trampling over each other, beating the shit out of each other for a discounted mediocre television or laptop etc. I mean... I’ve taken advantage of the sales later in the day and online, sure. But I’m not sure if it’s something to that one should be proud to celebrate!
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,776
Arkansas, USA
I'm 1/4 native and I have zero problems with people celebrating Thanksgiving.

That said the founding myth needs to go away. And it would be nice if we had a day of national atonement. But pushing for that day to be Thanksgiving is foolish.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,952
I don't necessarily ascribe any colonial/racist views to people who celebrate Thanksgiving, but in this case I have to defer to the people who are hurt by it. I'm listening to them and I think native representatives make good points.

Also I was in elementary School in the early 90s when teachers still dressed up their mostly white students in feathers and headbands, did "pow-wows," gave "Indian names," etc. and yikes. That was quite a time. So I am sympathetic to claims of cultural appropriation.
 
Nov 1, 2017
718
I feel like you’re assigning an attitude to my post that isn’t actually there.

There have been attempts to replace Thanksgiving with something more representative of the actual treatment of the First Nations. They generally fail because it’s hard to convince people to replace a widely celebrated day of community and feasting with a day of atonement and fasting. The best thing you can do is convince people to acknowledge the history of American genocide on that date... Which many of us do.

Recognizing Thanksgiving has a problematic history as a whitewashing tool of genocide is good. But at the end of the day, it’s easier to divorce the modern celebration of the holiday from its historical roots (Which as I mentioned, most people already have) and educate people on the full unfiltered history of American colonization on a daily basis (which most sadly have not) than to remove it.
Wasn't addressing you specifically. Rather the sentiment from many posts that came in to say one of : I already know this, that's not what it's about anymore or telling OP that he was too aggressive.
 
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MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,941
I mean now Thanksgiving is about family, eating until you pass out, football and being thankful for the things you have.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,158
This sort of attitude is precisely why you should be reminded at every opportunity that you're celebrating the extermination of the indigenous population.

I hope you all have a miserable Thanksgiving.
The extermination of the indigenous population was done WAY before I or my parents were born and there is nothing I can do to reverse or change it. So I plan on having a nice Thanksgiving with my husband, brother and parents where we relax, eat delicious food and be Thankful for the things we have in this life.

Also, there is enough negative and misery in this world, why wish people to have a miserable day? That is just not needed and immature.
 

Forkball

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,262
User warned: Hostility towards another member
OP if you went a whole day without posting a thread I bet your life would improve tenfold. Quality over quantity.
 

djplaeskool

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,951
I fully understand that the idyllic rendition of 'Pilgrims' pushed in my youth is largely BS, but I'm still taking my days off.
 
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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,117
The extermination of the indigenous population was done WAY before I or my parents were born and there is nothing I can do to reverse or change it. So I plan on having a nice Thanksgiving with my husband, brother and parents where we relax, eat delicious food and be Thankful for the things we have in this life.

Also, there is enough negative and misery in this world, why wish people to have a miserable day? That is just not needed and immature.
What are you talking about? “Can’t do anything about”... indigenous people are still being treated badly now, it wasn’t an event that happened 400 years ago and then nothing more, you’ve been continuing it for centuries. I can understand wanting a day off to be with families and friends (though why that has to take place on that day is not very defensible) but that acting like it was just in the past and not being done now is part of the problem.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
20,282
DFW, Texas
I get that it's a problematic holiday, but as long as you aren't perpetuating the myths and trying to hide the real history I don't mind people celebrating it.

The holiday has become one of the most family oriented holidays in the US and I would hate see that go away. Not that it's realistic to believe that it would.
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,545
I think there'd be more than that, but whatever.
Every modern country is filled with people who conquered other people, even if they don’t see themselves that way (the Romans conquered the Etruscans, but they’re all Italian today. Likewise the people proud of their native heritage in America usually aren’t drawing distinctions between tribes that were historically hostile to each other in most cases.) Even Uncontacted tribes probably killed or ousted other people from “their” lands. Using a very modern version of colonialism as the line for what’s “right” in a historical context rings pretty hollow to me.

We recognize (or should) recognize that these actions were bad, and our responsibility as people living now isn’t to wronged people dead for hundreds of years but improving our current world and the wronged people living now. I don’t see how trying to ban Thanksgiving does that.
 

AtomLung

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
655
We should definitely change what we teach in schools about the holiday, but I’m still trying to eat some pie next week.
 

ned_ballad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,020
Rochester, New York
How we teach the origin of the holiday in grade schools should certainly change. It's whitewashed and inaccurate.

But trying to convince people to not celebrate a family based holiday that most people don't think about the origins of, is an uphill battle that seems like it does more harm to your cause than helps.
 

MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,941
User banned (1 month): dismissing concerns around the impact of colonialism, attacking the community
Some of you are so woke I'm not sure how you make it through the day without offing yourself. It's great to think of others, especially groups that have been shit on historically. So do something for Native Americans that day or volunteer at a food bank or something, but trying to make everybody miserable on a day they want to spend with their family and being thankful for the things they have is a misstep. It's more about impressing others with just how woke you are instead of making a meaningful contribution. People are trying to get through this life with a little joy. They can visit with family, over eat and watch some football without having to feel guilty about it.
 

Bricktop

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,519
Thanksgiving, even more so than Christmas, has absolutely nothing to do with its origin at this point. It's one of the few times a year everyone in the family is able to get together and enjoy each others company, eat until your stuffed, and be thankful for what you have. Nothing is going to change that and trying to make people feel shitty about it is ridiculous and futile. By all means, fight for another day of remembrance for Native Americans and the atrocities that have been heaped upon them, but the fourth Thursday in November ain't it.
 

Dude Abides

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,055
I don‘t think imposing this white guilt about Thanksgiving is necessary. Watching the Detroit Lions is suffering enough.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,776
Arkansas, USA
How we teach the origin of the holiday in grade schools should certainly change. It's whitewashed and inaccurate.

But trying to convince people to not celebrate a family based holiday that most people don't think about the origins of, is an uphill battle that seems like it does more harm to your cause than helps.
Uphill battles that do more harm than good are what the US reactionary left specializes in though. If they aren't alienating potential allies to ensure that no progress is made then they aren't happy. They don't care that moralizing won't accomplish a damn thing. All it does is feed their egos. Do more good and talk less if you want people to follow your lead.
 

shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,051
Dublin, Ireland
Every modern country is filled with people who conquered other people, even if they don’t see themselves that way (the Romans conquered the Etruscans, but they’re all Italian today. Likewise the people proud of their native heritage in America usually aren’t drawing distinctions between tribes that were historically hostile to each other in most cases.) Even Uncontacted tribes probably killed or ousted other people from “their” lands. Using a very modern version of colonialism as the line for what’s “right” in a historical context rings pretty hollow to me.

We recognize (or should) recognize that these actions were bad, and our responsibility as people living now isn’t to wronged people dead for hundreds of years but improving our current world and the wronged people living now. I don’t see how trying to ban Thanksgiving does that.

You can take steps towards the wronged people living now, by having consistent acknowledgement of the horrors that continue to be thrust onto First Nations people.

My partner is of the Mi'kmaq. She's not asking for people to be miserable, but often says it would be nice if north americans didn't act like indigenous people don't exist anymore.
 

shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,051
Dublin, Ireland
How we teach the origin of the holiday in grade schools should certainly change. It's whitewashed and inaccurate.

But trying to convince people to not celebrate a family based holiday that most people don't think about the origins of, is an uphill battle that seems like it does more harm to your cause than helps.
The bolded is exactly the issue. People should think about it.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,158
User banned (1 week): Dismissing concerns around impact of colonialism
Some of you are so woke I'm not sure how you make it through the day without offing yourself. It's great to think of others, especially groups that have been shit on historically. So do something for Native Americans that day or volunteer at a food bank or something, but trying to make everybody miserable on a day they want to spend with their family and being thankful for the things they have is a misstep. It's more about impressing others with just how woke you are instead of making a meaningful contribution. People are trying to get through this life with a little joy. They can visit with family, over eat and watch some football without having to feel guilty about it.
The best response in this thread, thank you.
 

shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,051
Dublin, Ireland
Some of you are so woke I'm not sure how you make it through the day without offing yourself. It's great to think of others, especially groups that have been shit on historically. So do something for Native Americans that day or volunteer at a food bank or something, but trying to make everybody miserable on a day they want to spend with their family and being thankful for the things they have is a misstep. It's more about impressing others with just how woke you are instead of making a meaningful contribution. People are trying to get through this life with a little joy. They can visit with family, over eat and watch some football without having to feel guilty about it.

You can do all of this while leaving thanksgiving behind.
 

JealousKenny

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
1,231
The bolded is exactly the issue. People should think about it.
When does it end? It's like some of the extra woke people who want to ruin my 4th of July because I'm black and the 4th of July doesn't represent my independence. Like damn, I know that shit. Can I not just enjoy my day off, eat my fucking hot dog, and see some fireworks without you trying to ruin something.

Or the people who use Memorial Day to protest unjust wars.

Or the people who get preachy about Cinco de Mayo then get mad when they stop getting invited out for drinks.

Every holiday outside of Labor Day has some group complaining about it. And maybe there is an anti Labor Day force out there and I just haven't encountered it yet.
 

MikeBreezy92

Member
Oct 28, 2019
106
The epitome of "fuck y'all got mine".

Who cares that it's a painful reminder of displacement for an horrifically oppressed people. Turkey y'all!
Because no one is thinking about that when they celebrate the holiday. No one is celebrating the atrocities. It's already been appropriated into something else at this point for the most part because everyone mostly understands the history and decided to exclude that part and attached itself to less problematic aspects. If indigenous Americans want to reshape it into something else cool and I hope most people are down but telling people how bad they are for celebrating what amounts to a harvest festival is asinine.
 

Violence Jack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,803
Some of you are so woke I'm not sure how you make it through the day without offing yourself. It's great to think of others, especially groups that have been shit on historically. So do something for Native Americans that day or volunteer at a food bank or something, but trying to make everybody miserable on a day they want to spend with their family and being thankful for the things they have is a misstep. It's more about impressing others with just how woke you are instead of making a meaningful contribution. People are trying to get through this life with a little joy. They can visit with family, over eat and watch some football without having to feel guilty about it.
Great post.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,649
Houston
I made this thread in an attempt to educate people about the actual history surrounding Thanksgiving, this history is NOT the history that was taught to people in schools:
i think a bunch of people missed this point, like literally no one is getting around celebrating the first pligrims and shit. Thats not the point, the horrible history is still largely omitted from schools. And thanksgiving keeps getting taught as this fantasy land bullshit that from everything ive seen literally never happened.


I hate the holiday for the reasons you outlined OP. The only reason i even do anything on it is because my wife likes the "traditional" thanksgiving food. I couldnt care less about the food, the only things i like are brined and smoked turkey and stuffing. Yams? cranberries? green beans? fuck all that shit.

this year our friends from austin are coming in so we're going to do a dinner with them.
 

KillingJoke

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
859
User banned (5 days): Inflammatory comparison. Whataboutism.
"Problematic". lol

No, guns and racial violence is problematic. Thanksgiving evolved away from it's initial purpose a long time ago.
 
Dec 5, 2018
1,754
Because no one is thinking about that when they celebrate the holiday. No one is celebrating the atrocities. It's already been appropriated into something else at this point for the most part because everyone mostly understands the history and decided to exclude that part and attached itself to less problematic aspects.
Yeah, that's the problem.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,022
Some of you are so woke I'm not sure how you make it through the day without offing yourself. It's great to think of others, especially groups that have been shit on historically. So do something for Native Americans that day or volunteer at a food bank or something, but trying to make everybody miserable on a day they want to spend with their family and being thankful for the things they have is a misstep. It's more about impressing others with just how woke you are instead of making a meaningful contribution. People are trying to get through this life with a little joy. They can visit with family, over eat and watch some football without having to feel guilty about it.
This. Perfect post.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,782
Burbs of Atlanta
Countries who fought for independence against occupiers on land they are indigenous to.

Countries who don't have a long history of imperialism.
I hate to break it to you, but the tribes that colonialism destroyed, destroyed some other group before that and took their land, going all the way back to the origin of the species. It is the nature of mankind, as shitty as that is.
 

shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,051
Dublin, Ireland
I hate to break it to you, but the tribes that colonialism destroyed, destroyed some other group before that and took their land, going all the way back to the origin of the species. It is the nature of mankind, as shitty as that is.
Sure, no problem, human nature.

And territorial skirmishes between groups who are indigenous to the land mass is totally the same thing as wealthy Europeans sailing across the atlantic with guns and racism to exterminate the natives and steal their land exact same thing.

In fact, the natives probably taught the colonisers the biological warfare they used to wipe out the native people.

Definitely. Thanks for opening my eyes.
 

SG-17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,796
I'm from Plymouth. Ask me anything.

It might surprise people outside of Plymouth to learn that the town itself has been trying to educate people on the history of the time as a whole, but people are still going to believe whatever mythological story was built up around it.

For one, it's amazing there was relative peace for 50 years before King Philips war occurred. The Plymouth colony and Bay colony (Boston) were different sets of religious groups and did not get along. At all. You can still a line on the maps between the Old Colony and Bay Colony territory. The Bay colony was were most of the trouble with the natives began, so fuck Boston.

Yes, the local Wampanoag approached the pilgrims because they wanted the English (and their guns) on their side because they were fighting wars with other tribes at the time. The entire native population of the New England coast had been decimated by an epidemic 4 years prior to the arrival of Pilgrims. When they landed on Cape Cod they found unburied skeletal remains of those that didn't survive. They dug up existing graves and stores of food because they were out, at one time digging up the corpse of a woman and child who had blond hair. (No explanation for that.) They eventually landed at 'new plimoth' (what John Smith had labeled the Wampanoag village of Patuxet.) It was a nice little harbor with drinkable water and cleared land. The entire village had died in the epidemic (which was likely spread by European fishermen and traders.)

One settler killed herself by jumping off the Mayflower and drowning upon arrival in the New World. The pilgrims labeled her suicide an 'accident' so her soul wouldn't be condemned to hell for eternity. That first winter the Pilgrims were so afraid of the Wampanoag finding out that they were sick and dying that they propped the dead bodies up against trees to make them appear to be standing guard. They were buried in unmarked graves in Cole's hill, where over the next two hundred years the bones occasionally washed out and were interned in a stone sarcophagus at the top of the hill. The myth of Plymouth Rock is equally as weird, and mostly involves a drunken men's club.

The only time turkey is mentioned in "Of Plimoth Plantation" is as FOLLOWS:
And after ye time of ye writīg of these things befell a very sadd accidente of the like foule nature in this govermente, this very year, which I shall now relate. Ther was a youth whose name was Thomas Granger; he was servant to an honest man of Duxbery, being aboute 16. or 17. years of age. (His father & mother lived at the same time at Sityate.) He was this year detected of buggery (and indicted for ye same) with a mare, a cowe, tow goats, five sheep, 2. calves, and a turkey. Horrible [249] it is to mention, but ye truth of ye historie requires it. He was first discovered by one yt accidentally [475]saw his lewd practise towards the mare. (I forbear perticulers.) Being upon it examined and com̅itted, in ye end he not only confest ye fact with that beast at that time, but sundrie times before, and at severall times with all ye rest of ye forenamed in his indictmente; and this his free-confession was not only in private to ye magistrats, (though at first he strived to deney it,) but to sundrie, both ministers & others, and afterwards, upon his indictmente, to ye whole court & jury; and confirmed it at his execution. And wheras some of ye sheep could not so well be knowne by his description of them, others with them were brought before him, and he declared which were they, and which were not. And accordingly he was cast by ye jury, and condemned, and after executed about ye 8. of Septr, 1642. A very sade spectakle it was; for first the mare, and then ye cowe, and ye rest of ye lesser catle, were kild before his face, according to ye law, Levit: 20. 15. and then he him selfe was executed. The catle were all cast into a great & large pitte that was digged of purposs for them, and no use made of any part of them.

Not all of the native population was killed in King Philip's war. Just most of it. Many natives were shipped off to Jamaica into slavery. Communities of 'praying indians' survived. Large portions of the town were still owned by Wampanoag interests until 1870 when the State made a proclamation that all natives were Massachusetts residents and had the rights to do whatever with their land. Disenfranchised for generations most chose to sell large portions to pay off debts.

Plymouth, today, tries to use Thanksgiving as an opportunity to promote multicultural exchanges and community togetherness. History is fascinating. My hometown is beautiful, and complicated, and weird.
Thanks for this post, actual history is not black and white.

Thanksgiving was just originally a continuation of localized harvest festivals, leaders (political or otherwise) could and usually proclaimed thanksgivings to celebrate important events or good harvests. From the mid 1700s until 1863 it was up to the President to proclaim a general thanksgiving and it did not happen every year.

It only became a yearly federal holiday with Lincoln in 1863 as a tactic to help unify the nation and provide some morale during the Civil War. After this the celebration of Thanksgiving became more and more homogenized (Turkey, pumpkin pie becoming traditional nationwide rather than regional).

The incorporation of the First Thanksgiving into the Thanksgiving holiday didn't happen until after Lincoln's federalization of the holiday and, if I am remembering correctly, the first time that a President even connected the First Thanksgiving to Thanksgiving was JFK in 1963.

It's really only been with the development of modern media, the televised parades, TV specials, films, etc that the connection was cemented between the semi-mythical First Thanksgiving and the millennia old harvest festival of Thanksgiving.

We should definitely trash Columbus Day and make it into an Indigenous Peoples Day, make a new holiday to celebrate Italian-American contributions (which was the original idea behind Columbus Day), and try to culturally revert Thanksgiving away from the myth, but there is no sound reason to end the yearly Thanksgiving holiday.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,465
I wish I lived in the areas where some of you did where the myth had died and the real history is taught, but where I am is probably like a lot of places where the myth is still taught. In the same library where there is a book about transgender identity prominently displayed there are also front facing books that are all about the myth.

And you know, I'm all for people having a good time and enjoying a day off with family and friends, but pretending like the baggage is not there is disingenuous. You don't have to be thinking about the mythology for that story to have power over the celebration. People can pretend like their celebration is totally divorced but most people still make the traditional food. How are you going to say that your celebration has nothing to do with the story when you're still using the traditional foods? In what way does your celebration have nothing to do with pilgrims and shit when you're still preparing the dishes purported to be served there?

I'm not saying it's wrong or bad or evil to eat the traditional foods. Just don't pretend like they don't mean anything.

If you really want to divorce the proceedings from the mythology and the surrounding horrors of our relationship with the indigenous peoples, then strip it of all of its' cultural signifiers. I mean, I don't know much about Native American food but prepare dishes from their culture, or from some totally different culture---like do Chinese food instead.

I would say though that I'm not for totally divorcing it. I think a lot of people who say they're celebration is separate from the story are doing so in order to help assuage their own guilt about the past and present wrongs done to Native peoples. Erasing the history completely does nothing but allow people to be more comfortable about their ancestors misdeeds.

And I know there are some people who will say it doesn't matter, it's the past. But maybe if more people spent time reflecting upon the debt we owe our Native population shit like Standing Rock wouldn't continue to happen.