Since it's November, annual reminder: Thanksgiving is a problematic holiday, "celebrates a myth of colonialism and white proprietorship of the U.S."

Middleman

Banned
Jun 14, 2019
928
No ones uncomfortable, no one celebrates thanksgiving for the reasons posted in the OP.

I’m thankful to spend time with my family and all the new additions to the family, what are you thankful for this year?
thanksgiving is by far one of my favorite holidays. I’m aware of where it came from and what it could represent but to me it’s eating a great meal with my family and spending time with them. I’m sure it’s that way for most people
The epitome of "fuck y'all got mine".

Who cares that it's a painful reminder of displacement for an horrifically oppressed people. Turkey y'all!
 

tmarg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
557
Kalamazoo
There should be one then, cause Thanksgiving can't just be about the food as it ignores the history.
Just about every agrarian society celebrates some kind of harvest festival, and that dates back well before the arrival of the pilgrims.

Thanksgiving shares the same problem that a lot of American holidays have, which is that we have historically only been allowed to celebrate major holidays if they have religious (Christian) or nationalist significance.
 

Galactor

Member
Nov 11, 2017
478
This is obvious for the rest of the world, except Americans of course, the truth can be too much to accept. Same thing as the zwarte piet situation in Belgium.
 

sangreal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,683
But the origin of the food festivity comes from the myth of pilgrims and native Americans coming together for a harvest, so to ignore the history seems like privilege and cultural erasure of the natives. Either the food part is excised or native Americans are given tribute and respect for the day.
that’s not a myth though, they did come together peacefully for that event.The fact that it wasn’t truly the first thanksgiving isn’t really important but would only serve to weaken the argument that thanksgiving shouldn’t be observed because of later violence involving the Plymouth pilgrims
 

Fritz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,631
ditch it and establish just another rendition of a harvest festival like its celebrated all over the globe
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,358
Do you acknowledge/ have a discussion about the atrocities during the festivities? I always wonder for those that try to maintain that balance during the holiday, does it tend to damper things a bit?
No? There's 364 other days of the year, what's wrong with focusing on the positive things in life on days set apart to do so with just my family? If anything I'd bring it up after as a counterpoint and a lesson on how terrible people can be. The US does have a big problem with not focusing enough on the terrible things done on its soil though, and I'd be ecstatic if more effort was put into doing so with better education and media coverage.

Edit:
that’s not a myth though, they did come together peacefully for that event.The fact that it wasn’t truly the first thanksgiving isn’t really important but would only serve to weaken the argument that thanksgiving shouldn’t be observed because of later violence involving the Plymouth pilgrims
This basically sums up my thoughts better than I could, we should celebrate people coming together like that while still acknowledging what happened afterwards.
 

Soph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
849
We seem to have a bit of a double standard for celebrating a cultural holiday ingrained into the populace which unequivocally brings up colonialism and racism. The reactions in this topic seem to be as defensive as the Dutch when the Sinterklaasfeest got brought up.
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,976
We seem to have a bit of a double standard for celebrating a cultural holiday ingrained into the populace which unequivocally brings up colonialism and racism. The reactions in this topic seem to be as defensive as the Dutch when the Sinterklaasfeest got brought up.
Sure does remind me of that, yeah.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,982
UK
that’s not a myth though, they did come together peacefully for that event.The fact that it wasn’t truly the first thanksgiving isn’t really important but would only serve to weaken the argument that thanksgiving shouldn’t be observed because of later violence involving the Plymouth pilgrims
True, and when Squanto came back in 1619, his whole Patuxet tribe died from smallpox. And that no turkey was served.
 

Twinsun

Member
Nov 2, 2017
633
The double standard here is hilarious. I'm sure some of the people here being super defensive about thanksgiving are the first to go after other cultures problematic celebrations.
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,976
As mentioned by others. The whole Zwarte Piet thing.
Fuck, why even go that far? Compare and contrast the difference in reaction between that and Columbus day. It's the same exact thing as Columbus day, with the exception of the fact that nobody gives a shit about Columbus Day. So people are willing to admit that holiday is fucked, because it forwards a revisionist history of the original owners of this continent. Same principle applies about Thanksgiving but people aren't willing to do that, even though... nobody gives a shit about the Thanksgiving founding myth and it's easy to just... change shit around.
 

Twinsun

Member
Nov 2, 2017
633
Ahh. Well if people who celebrated thanksgiving put on red faces and headresses etc, that would be pretty bad. (And in similar poor taste)

Thankfully most people just get together to appreciate their family and give thanks 🤷‍♂️
Sure, but there is still a double standard in how casually some of you dismiss the concerns of people who have a problem with the celebration. I'm sure plenty of people who celebrate zinterklaasvond also dismiss the criticism because of reasons of it being just about having a good time.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,021
When I celebrate Thanksgiving, I celebrate the opportunity to spend time with family. Not colonialism.

Before we eat we always say a few words to remember the natives who were raped and slaughtered and then largely Whitewashed out of the history books.

Are there people who actually celebrate the fake history of Thanksgiving? I feel like everyone knows its fake.

What I do find problematic about it all is how school kids are still taught about some glorious collaboration between colonizers and natives. Those school plays with the happy endings need to go.
 
Last edited:

Twinsun

Member
Nov 2, 2017
633
I don't think that's the same as blackface, especially when most here understand and disagree with the fake history of Thanksgiving. I mean I'm black my people had nothing to do with that.
That's the thing though. Peoples take different levels of offense to things.
All I'm saying is don't be so quick to dismiss peoples concerns just because you happen to have an emotionel attachment to what is being critisized.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,106
People are being very defensive. You can celebrate Thanksgiving while also having a discussion and raising awareness about the treatment of Native Americans.

Saying “that’s not why I celebrate it though” isn’t an excuse.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,409
That's the thing though. Peoples take different levels of offense to things.
All I'm saying is don't be so quick to dismiss peoples concerns just because you happen to have an emotionel attachment to what is being critisized.
It's a discussion forum, no ones telling op to stop posting. Most in the thread are saying exactly what I said in my post.
 

Lord Fagan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,744
Just another phase of the Season of Consumption for most people. A consumption of lipids between a consumption of carbs and consumption of retail.
 

Twinsun

Member
Nov 2, 2017
633
I mean unless you're talking about specific posters it just seems moot to me. Especally when you don't know the background of said posters. Tbh I might just have too much faith in the posters here knowing history.
Fair enough. It was more aimed at a general attitude I see a lot around here. It's easy to be outraged at something that you aren't a participant in.
 

Snowybreak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,029
I mean, I know the fucked up history of Thanksgiving (thanks "The Dollop"), but my family has never really acknowledged the historical iconography of the holiday and we just do our own thing. For us it's a way to gather all of our family friends together to celebrate living through another year. We do it at our restaurant and have an open invitation to anyone who might walk in the door. Usually end up with thirty, forty people there. Plus we're Unitarian, so we have no love for the pilgrims/Puritans.
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,700
I'm from Plymouth. Ask me anything.

It might surprise people outside of Plymouth to learn that the town itself has been trying to educate people on the history of the time as a whole, but people are still going to believe whatever mythological story was built up around it.

For one, it's amazing there was relative peace for 50 years before King Philips war occurred. The Plymouth colony and Bay colony (Boston) were different sets of religious groups and did not get along. At all. You can still a line on the maps between the Old Colony and Bay Colony territory. The Bay colony was were most of the trouble with the natives began, so fuck Boston.

Yes, the local Wampanoag approached the pilgrims because they wanted the English (and their guns) on their side because they were fighting wars with other tribes at the time. The entire native population of the New England coast had been decimated by an epidemic 4 years prior to the arrival of Pilgrims. When they landed on Cape Cod they found unburied skeletal remains of those that didn't survive. They dug up existing graves and stores of food because they were out, at one time digging up the corpse of a woman and child who had blond hair. (No explanation for that.) They eventually landed at 'new plimoth' (what John Smith had labeled the Wampanoag village of Patuxet.) It was a nice little harbor with drinkable water and cleared land. The entire village had died in the epidemic (which was likely spread by European fishermen and traders.)

One settler killed herself by jumping off the Mayflower and drowning upon arrival in the New World. The pilgrims labeled her suicide an 'accident' so her soul wouldn't be condemned to hell for eternity. That first winter the Pilgrims were so afraid of the Wampanoag finding out that they were sick and dying that they propped the dead bodies up against trees to make them appear to be standing guard. They were buried in unmarked graves in Cole's hill, where over the next two hundred years the bones occasionally washed out and were interned in a stone sarcophagus at the top of the hill. The myth of Plymouth Rock is equally as weird, and mostly involves a drunken men's club.

The only time turkey is mentioned in "Of Plimoth Plantation" is as FOLLOWS:
And after ye time of ye writīg of these things befell a very sadd accidente of the like foule nature in this govermente, this very year, which I shall now relate. Ther was a youth whose name was Thomas Granger; he was servant to an honest man of Duxbery, being aboute 16. or 17. years of age. (His father & mother lived at the same time at Sityate.) He was this year detected of buggery (and indicted for ye same) with a mare, a cowe, tow goats, five sheep, 2. calves, and a turkey. Horrible [249] it is to mention, but ye truth of ye historie requires it. He was first discovered by one yt accidentally [475]saw his lewd practise towards the mare. (I forbear perticulers.) Being upon it examined and com̅itted, in ye end he not only confest ye fact with that beast at that time, but sundrie times before, and at severall times with all ye rest of ye forenamed in his indictmente; and this his free-confession was not only in private to ye magistrats, (though at first he strived to deney it,) but to sundrie, both ministers & others, and afterwards, upon his indictmente, to ye whole court & jury; and confirmed it at his execution. And wheras some of ye sheep could not so well be knowne by his description of them, others with them were brought before him, and he declared which were they, and which were not. And accordingly he was cast by ye jury, and condemned, and after executed about ye 8. of Septr, 1642. A very sade spectakle it was; for first the mare, and then ye cowe, and ye rest of ye lesser catle, were kild before his face, according to ye law, Levit: 20. 15. and then he him selfe was executed. The catle were all cast into a great & large pitte that was digged of purposs for them, and no use made of any part of them.

Not all of the native population was killed in King Philip's war. Just most of it. Many natives were shipped off to Jamaica into slavery. Communities of 'praying indians' survived. Large portions of the town were still owned by Wampanoag interests until 1870 when the State made a proclamation that all natives were Massachusetts residents and had the rights to do whatever with their land. Disenfranchised for generations most chose to sell large portions to pay off debts.

Plymouth, today, tries to use Thanksgiving as an opportunity to promote multicultural exchanges and community togetherness. History is fascinating. My hometown is beautiful, and complicated, and weird.
Underrated post.

So we have turkeys raped, hanging out with family you hate, over commercialism, dread for the next dawn and the horrors it might bring, and turkeys still dying, hopefully without being raped first.

Sounds to me that the miserable Thanksgiving experience remains unbroken.
 

Mona

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,475
The thanksgiving I celebrate has nothing to do with native americans or pilgrims, but the fact that I call it thanksgiving probably gives cover to people who celebrate it for that stuff
 
Jun 10, 2018
1,932
Because of my Native background (2 generations removed on my dad's side) I especially don't celebrate or even call the day "Thanksgiving". To me, it's just another day off.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,595
Those getting upset at the "defensiveness" of people in this thread are acting as if the OP presented the information in a relatively neutral way. He basically told us we should all stop celebrating completely, which frames the discussion in a very particular way.
Yes, people should be aware. That doesn't mean everyone should immediately stop having a day that for most people = traveling to be with family and eating together.
 

Galactor

Member
Nov 11, 2017
478
Those getting upset at the "defensiveness" of people in this thread are acting as if the OP presented the information in a relatively neutral way. He basically told us we should all stop celebrating completely, which frames the discussion in a very particular way.
Yes, people should be aware. That doesn't mean everyone should immediately stop having a day that for most people = traveling to be with family and eating together.
People are not defending the good side of being with your family while condoning the ugly cultural origin, they are saying who cares anyway and using the family reunion as an excuse to stop the debate.
 

ViewtifulJC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,430
User banned (duration pending): Inflammatory comparisons. Whataboutism. History of similar behavior.
So Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas are all problematic and we should feel shame for celebrating them in this hell hole of a planet

got it, thanks OP. Lookin forward to the Valentine’s Day thread where we tackle its corporate capitalism of love and why showing affection is problematic
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,349
Thanksgiving for everyone I know has nothing to do with pilgrims and the Native Americans. It’s like Christmas, but even more dissociated with any origins.

I don’t think telling people to stop spending time with family and being thankful for what they have in life is the right way to educate people.
 

Galactor

Member
Nov 11, 2017
478
Thanksgiving for everyone I know has nothing to do with pilgrims and the Native Americans. It’s like Christmas, but even more dissociated with any origins.

I don’t think telling people to stop spending time with family and being thankful for what they have in life is the right way to educate people.
In essence, is Thanking the natives for dying and letting us their lands.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,123
...So basically what Thanksgiving already is for the majority of people?
What harvest festivals normally take place late November? What harvest are you actually celebrating? If you want to do a harvest festival, do it in September or October and then you would have better timing and also wouldn’t be perpetuating a holiday which is based on a people’s genocide?
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
9,914
What harvest festivals normally take place late November? What harvest are you actually celebrating? If you want to do a harvest festival, do it in September or October and then you would have better timing and also wouldn’t be perpetuating a holiday which is based on a people’s genocide?
Okay, I’ll get to work on establishing that as a national holiday. In the meantime, fourth Thursday of November will have to do.