- Jun 14, 2019
The epitome of "fuck y'all got mine".
Who cares that it's a painful reminder of displacement for an horrifically oppressed people. Turkey y'all!
The epitome of "fuck y'all got mine".
Just about every agrarian society celebrates some kind of harvest festival, and that dates back well before the arrival of the pilgrims.
that’s not a myth though, they did come together peacefully for that event.The fact that it wasn’t truly the first thanksgiving isn’t really important but would only serve to weaken the argument that thanksgiving shouldn’t be observed because of later violence involving the Plymouth pilgrimsBut the origin of the food festivity comes from the myth of pilgrims and native Americans coming together for a harvest, so to ignore the history seems like privilege and cultural erasure of the natives. Either the food part is excised or native Americans are given tribute and respect for the day.
No? There's 364 other days of the year, what's wrong with focusing on the positive things in life on days set apart to do so with just my family? If anything I'd bring it up after as a counterpoint and a lesson on how terrible people can be. The US does have a big problem with not focusing enough on the terrible things done on its soil though, and I'd be ecstatic if more effort was put into doing so with better education and media coverage.
This basically sums up my thoughts better than I could, we should celebrate people coming together like that while still acknowledging what happened afterwards.that’s not a myth though, they did come together peacefully for that event.The fact that it wasn’t truly the first thanksgiving isn’t really important but would only serve to weaken the argument that thanksgiving shouldn’t be observed because of later violence involving the Plymouth pilgrims
Sure does remind me of that, yeah.We seem to have a bit of a double standard for celebrating a cultural holiday ingrained into the populace which unequivocally brings up colonialism and racism. The reactions in this topic seem to be as defensive as the Dutch when the Sinterklaasfeest got brought up.
True, and when Squanto came back in 1619, his whole Patuxet tribe died from smallpox. And that no turkey was served.that’s not a myth though, they did come together peacefully for that event.The fact that it wasn’t truly the first thanksgiving isn’t really important but would only serve to weaken the argument that thanksgiving shouldn’t be observed because of later violence involving the Plymouth pilgrims
Fuck, why even go that far? Compare and contrast the difference in reaction between that and Columbus day. It's the same exact thing as Columbus day, with the exception of the fact that nobody gives a shit about Columbus Day. So people are willing to admit that holiday is fucked, because it forwards a revisionist history of the original owners of this continent. Same principle applies about Thanksgiving but people aren't willing to do that, even though... nobody gives a shit about the Thanksgiving founding myth and it's easy to just... change shit around.
Ahh. Well if people who celebrated thanksgiving put on red faces and headresses etc, that would be pretty bad. (And in similar poor taste)
Sure, but there is still a double standard in how casually some of you dismiss the concerns of people who have a problem with the celebration. I'm sure plenty of people who celebrate zinterklaasvond also dismiss the criticism because of reasons of it being just about having a good time.
That's a good observation, though probably also counts for non-Americans defending their holidays/festivities.
That's the thing though. Peoples take different levels of offense to things.
It's a discussion forum, no ones telling op to stop posting. Most in the thread are saying exactly what I said in my post.
I mean unless you're talking about specific posters it just seems moot to me. Especally when you don't know the background of said posters. Tbh I might just have too much faith in the posters here knowing history.
Fair enough. It was more aimed at a general attitude I see a lot around here. It's easy to be outraged at something that you aren't a participant in.
Underrated post.I'm from Plymouth. Ask me anything.
It might surprise people outside of Plymouth to learn that the town itself has been trying to educate people on the history of the time as a whole, but people are still going to believe whatever mythological story was built up around it.
For one, it's amazing there was relative peace for 50 years before King Philips war occurred. The Plymouth colony and Bay colony (Boston) were different sets of religious groups and did not get along. At all. You can still a line on the maps between the Old Colony and Bay Colony territory. The Bay colony was were most of the trouble with the natives began, so fuck Boston.
Yes, the local Wampanoag approached the pilgrims because they wanted the English (and their guns) on their side because they were fighting wars with other tribes at the time. The entire native population of the New England coast had been decimated by an epidemic 4 years prior to the arrival of Pilgrims. When they landed on Cape Cod they found unburied skeletal remains of those that didn't survive. They dug up existing graves and stores of food because they were out, at one time digging up the corpse of a woman and child who had blond hair. (No explanation for that.) They eventually landed at 'new plimoth' (what John Smith had labeled the Wampanoag village of Patuxet.) It was a nice little harbor with drinkable water and cleared land. The entire village had died in the epidemic (which was likely spread by European fishermen and traders.)
One settler killed herself by jumping off the Mayflower and drowning upon arrival in the New World. The pilgrims labeled her suicide an 'accident' so her soul wouldn't be condemned to hell for eternity. That first winter the Pilgrims were so afraid of the Wampanoag finding out that they were sick and dying that they propped the dead bodies up against trees to make them appear to be standing guard. They were buried in unmarked graves in Cole's hill, where over the next two hundred years the bones occasionally washed out and were interned in a stone sarcophagus at the top of the hill. The myth of Plymouth Rock is equally as weird, and mostly involves a drunken men's club.
The only time turkey is mentioned in "Of Plimoth Plantation" is as FOLLOWS:
And after ye time of ye writīg of these things befell a very sadd accidente of the like foule nature in this govermente, this very year, which I shall now relate. Ther was a youth whose name was Thomas Granger; he was servant to an honest man of Duxbery, being aboute 16. or 17. years of age. (His father & mother lived at the same time at Sityate.) He was this year detected of buggery (and indicted for ye same) with a mare, a cowe, tow goats, five sheep, 2. calves, and a turkey. Horrible  it is to mention, but ye truth of ye historie requires it. He was first discovered by one yt accidentally saw his lewd practise towards the mare. (I forbear perticulers.) Being upon it examined and com̅itted, in ye end he not only confest ye fact with that beast at that time, but sundrie times before, and at severall times with all ye rest of ye forenamed in his indictmente; and this his free-confession was not only in private to ye magistrats, (though at first he strived to deney it,) but to sundrie, both ministers & others, and afterwards, upon his indictmente, to ye whole court & jury; and confirmed it at his execution. And wheras some of ye sheep could not so well be knowne by his description of them, others with them were brought before him, and he declared which were they, and which were not. And accordingly he was cast by ye jury, and condemned, and after executed about ye 8. of Septr, 1642. A very sade spectakle it was; for first the mare, and then ye cowe, and ye rest of ye lesser catle, were kild before his face, according to ye law, Levit: 20. 15. and then he him selfe was executed. The catle were all cast into a great & large pitte that was digged of purposs for them, and no use made of any part of them.
Not all of the native population was killed in King Philip's war. Just most of it. Many natives were shipped off to Jamaica into slavery. Communities of 'praying indians' survived. Large portions of the town were still owned by Wampanoag interests until 1870 when the State made a proclamation that all natives were Massachusetts residents and had the rights to do whatever with their land. Disenfranchised for generations most chose to sell large portions to pay off debts.
Plymouth, today, tries to use Thanksgiving as an opportunity to promote multicultural exchanges and community togetherness. History is fascinating. My hometown is beautiful, and complicated, and weird.
People are not defending the good side of being with your family while condoning the ugly cultural origin, they are saying who cares anyway and using the family reunion as an excuse to stop the debate.Those getting upset at the "defensiveness" of people in this thread are acting as if the OP presented the information in a relatively neutral way. He basically told us we should all stop celebrating completely, which frames the discussion in a very particular way.
Yes, people should be aware. That doesn't mean everyone should immediately stop having a day that for most people = traveling to be with family and eating together.
In essence, is Thanking the natives for dying and letting us their lands.Thanksgiving for everyone I know has nothing to do with pilgrims and the Native Americans. It’s like Christmas, but even more dissociated with any origins.
I don’t think telling people to stop spending time with family and being thankful for what they have in life is the right way to educate people.
This sort of attitude is precisely why you should be reminded at every opportunity that you're celebrating the extermination of the indigenous population.
What harvest festivals normally take place late November? What harvest are you actually celebrating? If you want to do a harvest festival, do it in September or October and then you would have better timing and also wouldn’t be perpetuating a holiday which is based on a people’s genocide?
Okay, I’ll get to work on establishing that as a national holiday. In the meantime, fourth Thursday of November will have to do.What harvest festivals normally take place late November? What harvest are you actually celebrating? If you want to do a harvest festival, do it in September or October and then you would have better timing and also wouldn’t be perpetuating a holiday which is based on a people’s genocide?