Shenmue Is The Waterworld Of Videogames (The Jimquisition)

Oct 25, 2017
754
I don't usually see Jim taking a "I really don't like <THING>. It has a huge fanbase though... Maybe it has some redeeming qualities but it's just not for me" stance. Why anyone would expect any different considering he has expressed his dislike for the series multiple times in the past and for Shenmue 3 specifically even before release?
Even though the game is generally well received by backers (the most invested segment of its target audience and to whom is mostly tailored to) his platform is largely based on negativity. This means that given his dislike for the series, past negative talk surrounding the series and somewhat slow news cycle, it's too tempting not to talk about Shenmue 3 and Shenmue in general in a bad light. Like I said before, it's low hanging fruit. So tempting he doesn't even bother if there are some blatant contradictions or factually wrong statements here and there.
 

srtrestre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,209
Can't blame him. I stopped playing it after 5 hours in order to play other games (Pokemon, MCC) and I'm not sure if I'll ever get back to it.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,809
It needs to make a substantial profit to have enough funds for another game, yes. He's not getting another kickstarter for sure so either someone agrees to publish and fund it or it's back to obscurity for Suzuki.
Well we should be able to see that soon enough. Given the budget I don't think they need to hit big numbers.
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,693
Ya know I coulda seen him doing some Shenmue 3 trashing if YS/DS were selling a $5 NG+ max save file (solution) so people can circumvent the game breakingly bad amount of mandatory grinding (problem) but... they aren't (yet?). As a fan of Shenmue who backed 3 and is extremely disappointed with it (has sat on my shelf for 12 of the 15 days I've had it) theres some things to be said about how the game turned out, or even a post mortem on how bad the kickstarter/messaging/selling out went, but this video ain't it. This is just a case of spiteful video is spiteful.
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,673
Unless 3 sold gangbusters Suzuki is going back to being irrelevant unless THQ or Epic pay him to make Shenmoo 3
Even if S4 doesn't happen he has a team in place to make something else. Who knows what kind of discussions he's had with Sega or whoever. I wouldn't mind seeing him bring back arcade style Outrun
 

Garlador

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,701
This is wrong.
You're basically saying that the first game ever who used gameplay with a gun influenced EVERY game with guns? That's dumb.
Uh, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying it helped influence and popularize these elements in future games.

And this isn't just what fans on some random message board are saying. Devs themselves openly talk about how influential Shenmue was.
Like, I don't get this revisionist history. I was there in 1999 when it came out. It made serious noise. Devs were talking about it for years as a groundbreaking 3D title that influenced and inspired hundreds of developers and future titles.

I guess 18 years removed from its impact makes a lot of people wonder what was so special and influential about the most expensive and ambitious game ever created in the 20th century...

You had people cursing Shenmue for awhile due to how many developers were littering their games with QTEs...
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,673
Well we should be able to see that soon enough. Given the budget I don't think they need to hit big numbers.
There's so much misinformation out there it's crazy. S3 was made on a small budget. I would be laughing my ass off if Deep Silver comes out saying they were satisfied with S3 sales.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,809
There's so much misinformation out there it's crazy. S3 was made on a small budget. I would be laughing my ass off if Deep Silver comes out saying they were satisfied with S3 sales.
Does anyone how much Deep Silver invested in this and how much money they want to make to be considered profitable for them?
 
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patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,971
Uh, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying it helped influence and popularize these elements in future games.

And this isn't just what fans on some random message board are saying. Devs themselves openly talk about how influential Shenmue was.
Like, I don't get this revisionist history. I was there in 1999 when it came out. It made serious noise. Devs were talking about it for years as a groundbreaking 3D title that influenced and inspired hundreds of developers and future titles.

I guess 18 years removed from its impact makes a lot of people wonder what was so special and influential about the most expensive and ambitious game ever created in the 20th century...

You had people cursing Shenmue for awhile due to how many developers were littering their games with QTEs...
To give an analogy -

"The Velvet Underground didn’t sell many records, but everyone who bought one went out and started a band." This statement has been ascribed to the prominent music producer Brian Eno and to the founding band member Lou Reed.
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,673
Then please enlighten us with some facts on how much Deep Silver invested in this and how much money they want to make to be considered profitable.
I don't know the internal goals of Deep Silver. IGN Japan said the games total budget was 12 million and backers + Shibuya is roughly 7-8 million which puts DS at 4-5 million if IGN is correct. The misinformation I'm referring to is the Sterling video and the people who regurgitate it.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,035
Does anyone how much Deep Silver invested in this and how much money they want to make to be considered profitable for them?
Apparently Yu Suzuki said they had a $12 million budget in a recent Famitsu interview. The crowdfunding, I believe, ended up at around $7.1 million. No idea who contributed what after that. Seems they'd need to sell a few hundred thousand copies to make a profit (350K?), using very fuzzy math and not factoring in any additional expenses. Sales are looking pretty modest in Japan and Europe, but we have no idea how it's selling in the US or digitally (or on EGS, but I'm not holding my breath as far as EGS is concerned).
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,719
Uh, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying it helped influence and popularize these elements in future games.

And this isn't just what fans on some random message board are saying. Devs themselves openly talk about how influential Shenmue was.
Like, I don't get this revisionist history. I was there in 1999 when it came out. It made serious noise. Devs were talking about it for years as a groundbreaking 3D title that influenced and inspired hundreds of developers and future titles.

I guess 18 years removed from its impact makes a lot of people wonder what was so special and influential about the most expensive and ambitious game ever created in the 20th century...

You had people cursing Shenmue for awhile due to how many developers were littering their games with QTEs...
Interestingly enough, Shenmue is probably the one game that for a long time used QTEs effectively.
It's probably still one of the few ones.
You can fail them and the game will continue.
That's not something you saw after Shenmue.

The weather conditions were incredible but limited, I mean I get the point of redoing the weather of that year in Japan but really that was unnecessary.
The openworld, I'm pretty sure they used other games as inspiration because they really seem to learn nothing from Shenmue.
Heck Shenmue didn't even stream assets at all so they didn't look at how Shenmue technically did things for that.
I'm kinda mad that they didn't actually pay attention when people cribbed Shenmue if you ask me.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,809
I don't know the internal goals of Deep Silver. IGN Japan said the games total budget was 12 million and backers + Shibuya is roughly 7-8 million which puts DS at 4-5 million if IGN is correct. The misinformation I'm referring to is the Sterling video and the people who regurgitate it.
My bad I thought you were referring to DS investing a huge amount or something. 4-5 million is still a hefty amount. But if you look at the sales its pretty reflective of what a game with that budget would sell.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
I already did, it was a dumb post to write unironically.

It always amuses me how people are derivative with their criticisms for content creatos with whom opinions they disagree with. God forbid they don't like some cult classic (emphasis on the cult), let's post who in the hell still watches them in <insert current year>.
So it’s ok to wax and wane in awe of content creator but not OK to criticise the intent behind their opinions? If you like Jim, good for you.


He has an audience that supports him through Patreon.

But yeah I know it's funnier shitting on him through an uninformed drive by post lol.
It’s not about being funny.

It’s great to have an opinion but when you run the opinion 2-3 times through the same type of video, what are you actually getting out there to your audience? You’ve expressed your opinion the first time. Anything after that is just drivel. It’s not informative content, it’s flat out simpleton entertainment for those who want to laugh at the expense of others. Problem is that his audience is so large that they take it as gospel and “informative, eat it up, then regurgitate it through the internet as fact. And others that defend him blindly. It’s OK for me to take issue with that, surely?
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,673
My bad I thought you were referring to DS investing a huge amount or something. 4-5 million is still a hefty amount. But if you look at the sales its pretty reflective of what a game with that budget would sell.
A lot of this is speculation but Japan sold around 20-22k physical and add digital we may be near 35-40k just in Japan.
Add the rest of the world for PS4 + Epic deal + future Steam + DLC there's absolutely no way this is a flop. Deep Silver no doubt came out on top. The question is it enough to secure complete funding for S4
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,719
A lot of this is speculation but Japan sold around 20-22k physical and add digital we may be near 35-40k just in Japan.
Add the rest of the world for PS4 + Epic deal + future Steam + DLC there's absolutely no way this is a flop. Deep Silver no doubt came out on top. The question is it enough to secure complete funding for S4
Up to 50% of total sellthrough would be digital for Shenmue 3?
In Japan?
A rationale for this jump?
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,809
This is wrong.
You're basically saying that the first game ever who used gameplay with a gun influenced EVERY game with guns? That's dumb.
Its not just the post you quoted saying that. Most of the people working in the industry do as well :)

A game doesn't have to sell blockbusters to become an influence to developers. Shenmue showed what was possible , even if parts of it weren't well done. That parts that it DID do well were enough to convince other devs to include it in their game.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,895
As a huge Shenmue fan I have trouble seeing any flaws in his argument in the video. Frankly the rabid defense of the game is bizarre to me. There is almost no better example of "not for everyone" than this series, and it's very weird that fans of it can't see that.
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,673
Up to 50% of total sellthrough would be digital for Shenmue 3?
In Japan?
A rationale for this jump?
Just using the latest general physical to digital ratio on PS4. I believe Sony came out in their financials that the digital ratio is over 50%. Not sure about Japan's.

Yu can make the argument that it would be cheaper to make Shenmue 4 because assets and engine is already in place. No need to create from scratch
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,809
As a huge Shenmue fan I have trouble seeing any flaws in his argument in the video. Frankly the rabid defense of the game is bizarre to me. There is almost no better example of "not for everyone" than this series, and it's very weird that fans of it can't see that.
Its the other way around. Most fans do see that and acknowledge why theres so much negative reviews. The issue with this video is there are a lot of misinformation regarding sales and budget.
 

Garlador

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,701
Legit question I'd ask Jim is why he likes Deadly Premonition but hates Shenmue, because I honestly feel like they share more DNA than most other games... In fact, I like both of them for many of the same reasons.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,035
I think taking Shenmue 3 multi-plat would be a good next step. Would it work as a digital-only game on the Xbox One? Switch would be great, but it seems like it'd need a lot of work since the PS4 struggles with it.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,719
What is the standard Digital : Physical ration in Japan ?
I don't know but I've seen a lot of "digital will push that game into sucess story" in Media create thread to doubt a game could easily sell double what physical usually do.
Just using the latest general physical to digital ratio on PS4. I believe Sony came out in their financials that the digital ratio is over 50%. Not sure about Japan's
That is very different.
A lot of PS4 games don't get a physical version at all.
Unless that means the digital only represent almost nothing globally, it's also rather known that Japan hasn't been at the forefront of digital release adoption compared to the rest of the world (even moreso with the thriving used market there).
Legit question I'd ask Jim is why he likes Deadly Premonition but hates Shenmue, because I honestly feel like they share more DNA than most other games... In fact, I like both of them for many of the same reasons.
He can like games and hate the thing that inspired the game he loved.
That's actually rather normal.
You may like Dragon Quest but that doesn't mean you have to love Ultima either.
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,693
I think taking Shenmue 3 multi-plat would be a good next step. Would it work as a digital-only game on the Xbox One? Switch would be great, but it seems like it'd need a lot of work since the PS4 struggles with it.
On Xbone it'd bomb harder than the extremely lttp Yakuza ports will. Switch doesn't even have the I & II collection so it'll go nowhere there either. Plus who's fronting the money for said ports? I, and other people who own the game, would prolly rather they keep working on existing versions to patch up its various issues. Thats where their money should be going right now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
754
I think taking Shenmue 3 multi-plat would be a good next step. Would it work as a digital-only game on the Xbox One? Switch would be great, but it seems like it'd need a lot of work since the PS4 struggles with it.
Like many games that get Sony's assistance/promotion I think the deal will eventually expire and it will become multi-platform. I don't know about how successful an Xbox ports will be, but I think it would easily justify the effort.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,035
On Xbone it'd bomb harder than the extremely lttp Yakuza ports will. Switch doesn't even have the I & II collection so it'll go nowhere there either. Plus who's fronting the money for said ports? I, and other people who own the game, would prolly rather they keep working on existing versions to patch up its various issues. Thats where their money should be going right now.
Those Yakuza ports are just gonna go on Gamepass, right? I have no idea how developers/publishers are paid with that kind of situation, but aren't I & II currently on Gamepass? I think 3 is an easier sale at a discounted price (sub-$40) or as part of a subscription package. No clue what it'd cost to port, but I do see a lot of people complaining it's not on the Xbox or Switch when I browse my dark corners of the internet.
 
Aug 31, 2019
10
I think taking Shenmue 3 multi-plat would be a good next step. Would it work as a digital-only game on the Xbox One? Switch would be great, but it seems like it'd need a lot of work since the PS4 struggles with it.
The PS4 struggling performance wise with it, is more of an issue with the fact the frame rate has been left uncapped rather than capping it at 30fps, It means that the frame rate fluctuates (far too often)
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,719
On Xbone it'd bomb harder than the extremely lttp Yakuza ports will. Switch doesn't even have the I & II collection so it'll go nowhere there either. Plus who's fronting the money for said ports? I, and other people who own the game, would prolly rather they keep working on existing versions to patch up its various issues. Thats where their money should be going right now.
Switch owners are starved so it'll do great there!
It'll pay for itself clearly!
Also Shenmue on the Go!
We all know that Shenmue is clearly the experience that's absolutely tailored to a handheld, right?
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,673
Those Yakuza ports are just gonna go on Gamepass, right? I have no idea how developers/publishers are paid with that kind of situation, but aren't I & II currently on Gamepass? I think 3 is an easier sale at a discounted price (sub-$40) or as part of a subscription package. No clue what it'd cost to port, but I do see a lot of people complaining it's not on the Xbox or Switch when I browse my dark corners of the internet.
Sega did a poll for switch owners on what titles they should bring over and Shenmue came in at #2. The collection makes sense and shouldn't be expensive.
 

Trejo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,166
This level of vitriol towards an extremely niche franchise seems a little unwarranted even for him. Did Yu Suzuki piss on Jim's dog or something?
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,029
Off topic but I wonder what Jim thinks of the topic on here of FF VII remake and box art being accused of being misleading. That kind of topic sounds right up his alley.
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,693
Those Yakuza ports are just gonna go on Gamepass, right? I have no idea how developers/publishers are paid with that kind of situation, but aren't I & II currently on Gamepass? I think 3 is an easier sale at a discounted price (sub-$40) or as part of a subscription package. No clue what it'd cost to port, but I do see a lot of people complaining it's not on the Xbox or Switch when I browse my dark corners of the internet.
Dunno, haven't followed 'em that closely, I imagine they'll be digital-only an I guess eventually on gamepass if not there from the start. Porting costs money so regardless of how the payouts for sales/downloads go in the end theres still gotta be cash upfront either from MS or Sega themselves to put 'em on the Xbone. I dun claim to know how well or not Yakuza 5 sold (PS3, download-only, extremely end of gen release) but a port of Shenmue 3'd be in that exact same scenario an its got a far greater uphill battle for sales/mindshare than Yakuza does but who knows maybe MS is feeling generous as of late!
 

Garlador

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,701
He can like games and hate the thing that inspired the game he loved.
That's actually rather normal.
You may like Dragon Quest but that doesn't mean you have to love Ultima either.
My point was that Deadly Premonition feels much more like Shenmue than... almost any other game that also exists. Ultima and Dragon Quest are still very different, and there are games that are far more similar to Ultima than Dragon Quest and games far more similar to Dragon Quest than Ultima.

But when I think about Deadly Premonition, I'm reminded of my wife mentioning that it seemed highly similar to my playthrough of Shenmue 2, and she's right. They share almost every single core gameplay element - from the schedules to the weather system to the QTEs to cumbersome controls to the puzzle/profiling hunts to quirky NPCs to giant open-world/city to the need to get money/sleep, etc. etc.

If you were to say "hey, I liked Deadly Premonition's game structure, what games are like it?" the first example that would jump out would be Shenmue. There are differences, of course (unless you think vehicle sections and forklifts are interchangeable), and the tone is different (DP interrupting its wacky daytime shenanigans with dissonant horror vibes), but in execution they're very close in execution.

That's sort of what I'm getting at. A lot of the things Jim has complained about that's in Shenmue are present in Deadly Premonition. A lot of the things he praised Deadly Premonition for are in Shenmue.
 
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pazinyo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,803
Barnsley, UK
Fan of Jim but never ever played Shenmue so cant speak for potential misinformation being spewed in the video

This video felt vindictive in spirit if not in it’s actual content. And usually his videos have a point to make, whether you disagree with him or not. This one doesn’t really, just basically him saying “I don’t like thing, I know some people do”.

Feels like he had nothing to talk about this week and had to make a video, I’m sure that happens sometimes and makes for a bit of a dilemma.

Definitely a misfire this one.
 

Baji Boxer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,127
Can't watch it at the moment, but curious to see his argument. I see it as a pretty poor comparison beyond costing a lot of money. Shenmue was popular, well received by critics, and sold a lot of units. The problem was that it was so expensive to make that it was impossible to make that money back. It sold over 1 million eventually, but at release the Dreamcast install base was less than 1 million. There was absolutely nothing that could be done to make that game financially successful.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,728
Jim's motivation for this video has gotta be the outsized treatment Shenmue 3 got at the announcement. Enthusiasts were literally saying Sony "won the generation" and other extremely hyperbolic statements on a game announcement for a sequel to a game that most people reacting never played. The reaction to Shenmue 3 announcement was a gaming moment I had pretty much only seen a handful of times in this community, FF coming to Xbox and like GTAIV launch trailer.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,047
United Kingdom
As a fan myself, Jim has some valid points, Shenmue isn't for everyone and it certainly isn't a big money earner.

It's always been a niche game, that found a fan base, which is awesome and it's not like he hates it, it's just not for him and many other people.
 

Garlador

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,701
Jim's motivation for this video has gotta be the outsized treatment Shenmue 3 got at the announcement. Enthusiasts were literally saying Sony "won the generation" and other extremely hyperbolic statements on a game announcement for a sequel to a game that most people reacting never played. The reaction to Shenmue 3 announcement was a gaming moment I had pretty much only seen a handful of times in this community, FF coming to Xbox and like GTAIV launch trailer.
It was a gaming unicorn that most people felt would never get a continuation. The Shenmue fanbase was NEVER big (well, at least 1 million), but it was passionate. It's the same as the Mega Man Legends 3 fans who are hungry for a new installment, or the Beyond Good & Evil fans that were teased for years for another game after the original was a commercial flop (but it was so good!).

Shenmue 3 was never going to set the charts on fire. It's not FF7 or Zelda. It's a beloved cult game that was one of the most ambitious and influential for its time that 18 years of gaming evolution has probably left behind.

Doesn't mean it's not still one of the most anticipated (and enjoyable) games this year for Shenmue fans who have stuck with the series for nearly 20 years.
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,693
As a fan myself, Jim has some valid points, Shenmue isn't for everyone and it certainly isn't a big money earner.

It's always been a niche game, that found a fan base, which is awesome and it's not like he hates it, it's just not for him and many other people.
Big problem is those aren't really solid reasons for putting the game on blast on a weekly show which is usually about digging into the scummy side of the gaming industry. "I don't like Shenmue and neither does a buncha other people" feels really outta place now sitting alongside just about any other of his Jimquistion eps.
 

Seik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,484
Québec City
Jim's motivation for this video has gotta be the outsized treatment Shenmue 3 got at the announcement. Enthusiasts were literally saying Sony "won the generation" and other extremely hyperbolic statements on a game announcement for a sequel to a game that most people reacting never played. The reaction to Shenmue 3 announcement was a gaming moment I had pretty much only seen a handful of times in this community, FF coming to Xbox and like GTAIV launch trailer.
To be honest the claim of 'Sony won the gen' wasn't exclusive to Shenmue 3's announcement alone, but combined to FFVII:R and The Last Guardian. That E3 was fire.
 

AwesomeSauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
Jim's motivation for this video has gotta be the outsized treatment Shenmue 3 got at the announcement. Enthusiasts were literally saying Sony "won the generation" and other extremely hyperbolic statements on a game announcement for a sequel to a game that most people reacting never played. The reaction to Shenmue 3 announcement was a gaming moment I had pretty much only seen a handful of times in this community, FF coming to Xbox and like GTAIV launch trailer.
It’s like ever since that moment, a bunch of haters were let loose on the series. We got the game funded but at what cost 😩

For the record, i really enjoyed my time with Shenmue III.