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Shenmue Is The Waterworld Of Videogames (The Jimquisition)

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706
Maybe if it had come together. Ultima IX was buggy and bad and effectively killed the whole damn franchise (still bitter about that).
Well I mean, it's a fairly ambitious 3D openworld game that killed a game company.
You can argue that Shemnue is like that too...
Still though while groundbreaking at the time, I don't really get the whole influential part of Shenmue when I don't think there's that many games out there that use what Shenmue did in any way.
You have absolutely how much I love the SaGa games but I would have a really hard time explaining how influential it was for gaming in general despite it being really influential to me.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,356
ya really gotta ask yourself why you’re watching Jim Sterling videos still, in 2019. Guy is the penultimate grumpy sod of the internet. Guess it makes money though.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,968
The thing is, for whatever reason, Shenmue 1+2 are consistently regarded as extremely influential by numerous developers, writers, critics... I get some of you think this is some self-perpetuating myth brought forth by the fans, but it's just a fact. It seems pointless to try to debate that it wasn't influential.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706
ya really gotta ask yourself why you’re watching Jim Sterling videos still, in 2019. Guy is the penultimate grumpy sod of the internet. Guess it makes money though.
If you're not a Patreon to Jim, chances are you're making Jim peanuts (and I mean actual peanuts) as far as ad revenue goes, because Youtube is shite.
 

Garlador

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,549
Well I mean, it's a fairly ambitious 3D openworld game that killed a game company.
You can argue that Shemnue is like that too...
Still though while groundbreaking at the time, I don't really get the whole influential part of Shenmue when I don't think there's that many games out there that use what Shenmue did in any way.
You have absolutely how much I love the SaGa games but I would have a really hard time explaining how influential it was for gaming in general despite it being really influential to me.
Shenmue didn't kill Sega, though, and I've read dozens of interviews with creators throughout the industry of how Shenmue influenced them.

Whether it was the "walking simulator" aspects that influenced games like Gone Home, the open-city element that influenced the likes of Yakuza, Crackdown, Saints Row, and GTA, the popularization of its QTE elements that are in everything from Resident Evil to Detroit: Become Human, its dynamic weather system which has been in games from Breath of the Wild to Skyrim, its NPC hourly schedules which are in things from Fable to Xenoblade to Morrowind, etc. etc. Shenmue wasn't just one thing or one genre or one idea - many of its combined elements flourished in many later games, with many of these devs saying Shenmue is the root of that inspiration.
 

MultiMoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,888
Silicon Valley
Finally turning a profit 20 years later still makes it a flop. Not that it matters in this case, as the analogy doesn't work in any way. Waterworld had a lot of problems shooting, was completely out of control budget wise, it was aiming for the mainstream audience and it was a pretty decent movie.
I know its a bit clunky writing wise, but thats not what it says.

The film released worldwide in 1995, and turned a profit of $29 millon. The $8 million came from video sales and such after all that.
 

Spyder_Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,948
Jim Sterling is a lot like Dunkey. Both are entertaining in their comfort zone (Sterling talking about the industry at large, Dunkey with comedy) but are crap when talking about individual games.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,550
USA
I know its a bit clunky writing wise, but thats not what it says.

The film released worldwide in 1995, and turned a profit of $29 millon. The $8 million came from video sales and such after all that.
It did not turn a profit of $29 million in 1995. It had a box office $29 million above it’s budget, but the studios got less than $145 million off the box office sales, making it a loss for many years.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,740
The thing is, for whatever reason, Shenmue 1+2 are consistently regarded as extremely influential by numerous developers, writers, critics... I get some of you think this is some self-perpetuating myth brought forth by the fans, but it's just a fact. It seems pointless to try to debate that it wasn't influential.
The fact that a niche Kickstarter game with a $7m budget is getting so much attention should be enough proof. Jim can post all the videos he wants about how crap or overrated the game is. Funnily enough he is still making a video on it.

You gotta wonder how a game that just sold a million and then the sequel selling even less than that. Is getting so much attention nearly 20 years later :)

The fact is, Shenmue 3 sold very poorly.
Shenmue is a bad game, and thats why only a few people bought it.
Nice try. But you also conveniently ignore the fact that over 70k people already backed it on KS. Thats a hefty number of people who would have bought it day 1 if it they weren't getting a copy already. So its already made back its budget and sales from now are just profit.

If you add in the backers , a game like this selling over 100k at launch is pretty damn huge. Far more than most succesful games in its budget.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706
what??
haha then why do you think he’s making this video then??
Same reason why Shemnue 3 was made, certainly not for the cash.
Shenmue didn't kill Sega, though, and I've read dozens of interviews with creators throughout the industry of how Shenmue influenced them.

Whether it was the "walking simulator" aspects that influenced games like Gone Home, the open-city element that influenced the likes of Yakuza and GTA, the popularization of its QTE elements that are in everything from Resident Evil to Detroit: Become Human, its dynamic weather system which has been in games from Breath of the Wild to Skyrim, its NPC hourly schedules which are in things from Fable to Xenoblade to Morrowind, etc. etc. Shenmue wasn't just one thing or one genre or one idea - many of its combined elements flourished in many later games, with many of these devs saying Shenmue is the root of that inspiration.
You're absolutely right about QTE, I really forget about them.
I said you can make the argument that Shenmue killed Sega, not that I'm making that argument :p
The NPC schedule I wouldn't put on Shenmue when Majora's Mask was well on its way to doing that a few month later and sold a lot more (also I'm pretty sure Ultima beat everyone to the punch there...like always).
For the openworld, I don't think Shenmue was that influential when no games do openworlds like Shenmue really (and if you ask me it's a shame).
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,774
Yeah I guess you are right.
I am surprised that the game apparantly doesn't end the strory though.
Does he really expect to make another one?
He was upfront about it not being the end of the saga, which is supposed to be pretty long. It was either butcher the story to end it with 3 or try doing a 4th (and probably 5th game) down the line. And even as a fan of the series, I really don't expect that to happen, its a pipe dream at best!
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,968
The big issue with Shenmue 3 is it doesn't really tell much of a story, which is gonna be a big issue going ahead with a sequel. Not sure why that happened--some would argue that was how the game was always meant to be since the outline is over 20 years old--but it's been one of the biggest negatives I've seen expressed numerous times by many Shenmue fans. If you can't captivate existing fans with the story, good luck making people desire a fourth game, let alone a fifth or a sixth.
 

Sesha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,947
I like Jim but that analogy doesn't work on any level. Jim can get pretty petty and stubborn about his personal pet peeves, and this seems like just that.
 

ValKiryuSonicEX

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,132
To rush and cut down the story in order to end it with a kickstarter project and have a Game of Thrones ending would be a slap in the face and disrespect to the fanbase.
Yea, pretty much, Yu has had to cut a lot down from what was envisioned, crapping out an ending would've been really bad.

It was small part of the bigger problem. Coming off a failed Saturn to launching a new console with prepared first party games with marketing in all to a end result of 10 million install base is what did them in.
SEGA had a lot of problems in those days, pinning it all on Shenmue is weird.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,990
It was small part of the bigger problem. Coming off a failed Saturn to launching a new console with prepared first party games with marketing in all to a end result of 10 million install base is what did them in.
Realistically the Saturn being a complete flop outside of Japan is what did them in, and they made another go of it with the Dreamcast which also wasn't enough to turn things around. Dumping an alleged 70 million into a game certainly must have hastened their demise though.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,356
Because it's a new game and he has an opinion on it? Because people pay him monthly to make videos?

It's a mystery, really, why he makes videos.
go read my first post in this thread. sarcasm is an ugly look when you get it so wrong.

Jim doesn't even monetize his Jimquisition videos. Those are specifically Patreon-funded.
Jim makes videos in an effort to get you to become a patreon. This is content creation 101

Same reason why Shemnue 3 was made, certainly not for the cash.

You're absolutely right about QTE, I really forget about them.
I said you can make the argument that Shenmue killed Sega, not that I'm making that argument :p
The NPC schedule I wouldn't put on Shenmue when Majora's Mask was well on its way to doing that a few month later and sold a lot more (also I'm pretty sure Ultima beat everyone to the punch there...like always).
For the openworld, I don't think Shenmue was that influential when no games do openworlds like Shenmue really (and if you ask me it's a shame).
this is exactly the kind of response you’d expect from someone who just got proven wrong.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706
Realistically the Saturn being a complete flop outside of Japan is what did them in, and they made another go of it with the Dreamcast which also wasn't enough to turn things around. Dumping an alleged 70 million into a game certainly must have hastened their demise though.
I think we had a topic about it recently that looked at the financial side and the Saturn was actually not unsustainable for them.
The massive losses were really more during the Dreamcast era.

this is exactly the kind of response you’d expect from someone who just got proven wrong.
Go play with your toys, adults are discussing.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,968
They claim VF4 made back any money Shenmue lost. No idea if it’s the truth, but that’s the story I’ve seen in a few places. AM2 was a vital part of Sega, Shenmue aside.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706
They claim VF4 made back any money Shenmue lost. No idea if it’s the truth, but that’s the story I’ve seen in a few places. AM2 was a vital part of Sega, Shenmue aside.
Not surprising if that were true, Sega was an industry giant based on Arcade alone.
The most surprising part of the vid to me is to learn how much shit Sega is doing with Virtua Fighter these days really.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,990
I think we had a topic about it recently that looked at the financial side and the Saturn was actually not unsustainable for them.
The massive losses were really more during the Dreamcast era.
I was thinking more of the mindshare. They went from going toe to toe with Nintendo to being a complete flop outside of Japan in one generation. It would have taken something huge for the Dreamcast to gain any traction after that debacle. The PS2 being on the horizon killed most of the enthusiasm to buy a Dreamcast among people that I knew. It was pretty much DOA despite doing decent numbers at launch.
 

adumb

Member
Aug 17, 2019
508
I like Jim, but I don't really get why he keeps going after Shenmue. I've never actually played any of them, but the people who like them really like them. Everyone seems more or less content with what they got with 3, in as much as I haven't really seen anyone kicking off about it.

I don't really know why he can't just let the people who enjoy it enjoy it. Let them spend all the money they can get their hands on making these things. What does it matter? Really? Shenmue fans seem to have a really nice time being Shenmue fans and I just can't get behind trying to take it down for seemingly no reason beyond 'I don't like it'.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,292
I should retire my Shenmue defense force avatar banner.
Shenmue doesn't need defending any more. We won. We got Shenmue 3.

I like some of Jim's opinions. I don't agree with him here. Better luck next video.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706
I was thinking more of the mindshare. They went from going toe to toe with Nintendo to being a complete flop outside of Japan in one generation. It would have taken something huge for the Dreamcast to gain any traction after that debacle. The PS2 being on the horizon killed most of the enthusiasm to buy a Dreamcast among people that I knew. It was pretty much DOA despite doing decent numbers at launch.
That's actually the interesting part that was discussed in the thread, Sega actually didn't mind all that much not being top dog as long as they didn't lose the barn on it.
Dreamcast was a death sentence to them when you consider how expensive it was to even make (all costs included), plus partners didn't want to deal with them after the saturn and customers REALLY had no reason to want to deal with them after they dropped support cold turkey on saturn.
"What might have been" sure but it's true that they really should have rode the generation out instead of trying to pull a very expensive switch.
Contrast and compare with the competition,
even the worst stinkers out there got really good support until the end....well except for Vita but everyone understands that Sony is done with handhelds so no one expect anything here.
small profits is better than none and they could have found a way to be more competitive if they rode out Saturn.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706
Say whatever you want about Shenmue, as far as signs of the Apocalypse goes it got a better ending than Duke Nukem Forever.
 

kess

Member
Oct 27, 2017
778
Contrarian opinions expressed through video by shitting on exuberance, a surefire way to drive viewership.
 
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Raoh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
The fact is, Shenmue 3 sold very poorly.
Shenmue is a bad game, and thats why only a few people bought it.
Lol, it was number 1 pre ordered game at UK and Japan, but nice effort.

You had some people also saying that Fist of the north Star Lost paradise because it didnt sold enough was also a bad game yet you have Jim Sterling praising it to hell and back and calling it GOTY. But you lot just love jumping on bandwagons.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,796
Las Vegas
I stopped watching Jim a while ago for my own sanity. It's exhausting being so negative all the time. Talking about microtransactions and anti-consumer stuff is one thing but this just seems like a really spiteful and unnecessary video. Shenmue clearly has its fans and they wanted this game to happen. Just say you don't like the game and move on. This is just negativity for the sake of it.
Negative and controversies get far more traction, in everything. Even on this forum the most popular threads are controversial based. Pointing out bad things in whatever shape they come in is important, make no mistake I'm not saying we should all be happy joy-joy all the time, but there needs to be a fundamental shift in how things are discussed.

I've seen people come in and say - "this game is trash" or "wow EA put microtransactions in their game what a garbage company hope their game bomb."

And it's like - I think there is a bit of a better way to express your disappointment without using that kind of jargon. But it's what sells, it's what sticks, it's what gets traction. And it sucks. It really does.

As a fan of Jim, I think his worst video - and I forgot the title of it, but it was saying how the Telltale devs deserved what was coming to them, just because their games weren't selling all that well.
 

Bansai

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,855
go read my first post in this thread. sarcasm is an ugly look when you get it so wrong.
I already did, it was a dumb post to write unironically.

It always amuses me how people are derivative with their criticisms for content creatos with whom opinions they disagree with. God forbid they don't like some cult classic (emphasis on the cult), let's post who in the hell still watches them in <insert current year>.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,649
Does a game that already made back its budget need to sell more ? Whatever it sells now is already profit.
It needs to make a substantial profit to have enough funds for another game, yes. He's not getting another kickstarter for sure so either someone agrees to publish and fund it or it's back to obscurity for Suzuki.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,706

Coi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
912
Shenmue didn't kill Sega, though, and I've read dozens of interviews with creators throughout the industry of how Shenmue influenced them.

Whether it was the "walking simulator" aspects that influenced games like Gone Home, the open-city element that influenced the likes of Yakuza, Crackdown, Saints Row, and GTA, the popularization of its QTE elements that are in everything from Resident Evil to Detroit: Become Human, its dynamic weather system which has been in games from Breath of the Wild to Skyrim, its NPC hourly schedules which are in things from Fable to Xenoblade to Morrowind, etc. etc. Shenmue wasn't just one thing or one genre or one idea - many of its combined elements flourished in many later games, with many of these devs saying Shenmue is the root of that inspiration.
This is wrong.
You're basically saying that the first game ever who used gameplay with a gun influenced EVERY game with guns? That's dumb.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,737
I watched the video...

I don't think Senmue III was made to be a massive seller, I think it was made for fans.

I enjoyed Shenmue (only played it recently via PS4) and didn't care for II, so decided that the game wasn't for me but was happy other people were getting the game they wanted.

Jim's complaints seem odd.
 

Raoh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
I like Jim, but I don't really get why he keeps going after Shenmue. I've never actually played any of them, but the people who like them really like them. Everyone seems more or less content with what they got with 3, in as much as I haven't really seen anyone kicking off about it.

I don't really know why he can't just let the people who enjoy it enjoy it. Let them spend all the money they can get their hands on making these things. What does it matter? Really? Shenmue fans seem to have a really nice time being Shenmue fans and I just can't get behind trying to take it down for seemingly no reason beyond 'I don't like it'.
Jim likes to get people riled up and at the same time he gets tons of views in controversial gaming topics.
He genuinely played Fist of the North Star Lost paradise for ps4 last year, he didn't knew anything about the anime or characters, and he loved it so much that he kept calling the game his game of the year. And that's funny because on Shenmue 3 you do the same activities that you do on Fist of the North Star:LP. You get jobs, you play minigames, visit the arcade, visit the casino, you train and you fight constantly. These are activities that you do on both games and on both games theyre so extremely fun, I know because I also loved Fist of the North Star, and I'm loving Shenmue 3 so much that I can't stop smiling at how good it actually is considering it's a game on a budget, looks far from it, each activity is so fun, and every moment and cutscene it's brimming with passion.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,968
This is wrong.
You're basically saying that the first game ever who used gameplay with a gun influenced EVERY game with guns? That's dumb.
Take exception with the many people in the industry who've cited it as an extremely influential and important open world game. "They" aren't saying anything that hasn't been said for nearly two decades by developers from Rockstar, CDProjekt Red, or dozens of industry writers and commentators. I don't understand why this is such a hard thing to accept for some of you. You might not agree, but it doesn't make you correct. As far as consensus on 'influence' is concerned, the industry has agreed Shenmue is indeed a very influential series.