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ResetEra Moderation Staff is Fucking Up Beyond Belief on LGBT+ Issues

oreomunsta

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,008
Check the threadmarks.
Thanks for the suggestion, and I did, but doesn't look too different from last night :/ which is about 12 hours ago

The second paragraph states that we're talking directly to members of TransEra to get a discussion going regarding all of this in the future. I don't have a date set yet or anything, we're still working on that.
Ah okay, thanks Hecht
 
OP
OP
Gundam

Gundam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,086
I get that it can take a while for mods to figure out what needs to be changed but the silence on the matter makes me think nothing is actually being figured out.
 

Hecht

Arizona shrimp horny
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
4,868
I get that it can take a while for mods to figure out what needs to be changed but the silence on the matter makes me think nothing is actually being figured out.
The past few days have been exhausting for both sides of this. It's not going to happen immediately, like tomorrow or anything, while tensions are still running high. We need time to determine what all needs to be addressed, what other topics of discussion are relevant, and options for moving forward.

We want this to happen, but we also want this to happen at a time when the discussion can be productive.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,308
USA
The second paragraph states that we're talking directly to members of TransEra to get a discussion going regarding all of this in the future. I don't have a date set yet or anything, we're still working on that.
Right, I saw that. I was just wondering why there has been no other statement yet, but it sounds like more time is needed. Thanks for the update
 

Hecht

Arizona shrimp horny
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
4,868
Right, I saw that. I was just wondering why there has been no other statement yet, but it sounds like more time is needed. Thanks for the update
Well other than "we're still working with TransEra to get this set up" there's not really an "update," per se. Currently on our end we're having discussions on things we can do to improve moderation, but we know that we'll have more of an idea once we have the feedback discussion.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,308
USA
Well other than "we're still working with TransEra to get this set up" there's not really an "update," per se. Currently on our end we're having discussions on things we can do to improve moderation, but we know that we'll have more of an idea once we have the feedback discussion.
Update, communication, statement, whatever you want to call it. All I was asking for is if there's anything beyond the short two paragraphs that I quoted, and it sounds like you all need more time.
 

Biggersmaller

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,998
Minneapolis
Trans folx know what's bigoted, abusive and trolling though - we've heard it all before countless times.

How about deferring to those of us who actually know our community, instead of assuming we don't know what we know.
Transgender people understand exactly what insincere/bigoted posting looks like and I believe related topics should be moderated entirely by trans individuals. People generally do a terrible job of listening to a group that's actually being impacted and putting control in their hands.

But I also believe overzealous moderation can diminish constructive discussions and debate. I feel those viewpoints are really not at odds.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,590
With that being said, my idea was that the appeal system would still be open to anyone who's been banned (I doubt, from a technical perspective, there's a way to make it so only certain bans can be appealed), which means if you think your post was misunderstood you can still appeal it anyway. It's just that for whatever "capital offenses" have been decided upon (bigotry, etc.) there's no guarantee your appeal will actually be examined.
Ok now I get it, though I think whoever initially reviews those appeals should not be the same person who made the ban.
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,705
Reposting Hobbes's incident report. These points have yet to be addressed.

So, let me go through and answer the questions I posed earlier last night regarding this issue and see if we've progressed.

--

  • Are the allegations made by the banned user true?
"I was assured by someone on the team who I deeply trust and is LGBT that the claim that this statement and the person who made them were against asexuals was incorrect and a misunderstanding."

  • If the allegations are true, what is being done to correct / educate this moderator's behavior and view?
See above

  • What specific site rules exist that allow such a ban to occur, given that the incident (the breach of privacy on a Staff discord) occurred off-site, and was simply mentioned in passing in a post?
Given reason post unban is that user violated a staff safe space.

  • Why was the ban permanent rather than shorter?
User unbanned.

  • Does this breach of privacy warrant such a strong punishment?
Not answered, but clearly reversed due to public outcry.

  • How was the investigation conducted?
This is unknown. Per Robin, 30 minutes elapsed from the original post being published to the user being banned. Ket then states "throughout this investigation that occurred, I was never once contacted or informed what any of these suspicions were actually about, so as of this moment, I am still unaware of what they are and unable to comment on them."

The investigation does not seem to have involved Ket up until very recently.

  • What information was provided that proved misconduct and malicious intent on part of the banned user?
Also unknown. Moderation as alluded to certain terminology being used as evidence, but that doesn't seem to suffice.

NEXT STEPS:

"We're taking this moment to listen, and we have reached out to the TransEra community to open direct dialogue about how we can all move forward and heal together. "

--

Additionally, the moderation team has not admitted any wrongdoing at all, only acknowledging that the timing of the post and the bannable offense aligned and made things look unpleasant, sending "the wrong message."
 

Hecht

Arizona shrimp horny
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
4,868
Ok now I get it, though I think whoever initially reviews those appeals should not be the same person who made the ban.
Generally it's not, though we do talk to the person who made the ban so we can get context and reasoning for the initial ban.

Ban appeals are made through the Contact Us button, and provided the message doesn't read something like "hey fuck you fucking fucks" we'll give it a read and talk about it. Those and the completely blatant bigotry ones, or the people who are like "lol this is totally my only account why was I banned?!?!"
 

Hecht

Arizona shrimp horny
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
4,868
do you actually read the rest of those or just wonder why the good lord's shat in your cereal :')
I do because I hate myself, but I mean...if someone is trying to explain why they were wronged, perhaps explaining it rather going straight for an attack is a better tactic (they tend to not bother doing that).
 

SweetBellic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,618
This is a lie that keeps the gates open just wide enough to let the assholes in.

This is not our problem to solve and ResetEra is not a university, it's a gaming forum. They can get the shit you're suggesting elsewhere. This forum and the people who make it are under no obligation to be all things educational to all people. Being a safe space for minorities is a lofty enough goal as it is. Your pushback here is evidence of that.
I mean, a forum has historically been a place for the exchange of ideas, not unlike a university, and no one is under any obligation to do or respond to anything. A safe space for voluntary discussion is arguably the raison d'etre for a forum. A moderation policy presuming JAQing every time someone poses a naive question or inadvertently makes an ignorant statement strikes me as antithetical to the spirit of any forum. That said, I hope it's clear I'm not suggesting that prejudiced or intolerant perspectives should be tolerated, or that current moderation policies should be more lax, just that I fear what you propose would quell a lot of interesting discussion that has been edifying for many GAF/Era posters over the years.
Resetera doesn’t need to be the place where that kind of discussion happens, though. We’re not a school. Marginalized people want to be able to discuss things too, without constantly being interrupted and having to be educators instead. Cause that’s what happens when things are like this: they can’t discuss things normally.

So how about we prioritize them instead? We won’t have less discussion, we’ll have different, better discussions: one that are less ignorant, but still varied. There are discussions that can never happen as is because we have to allow for ignorance to have a seat at the table.
I'm not sure it's as clear cut as prioritizing marginalized people. Marginalized groups are not a monolithic entity and there have been plenty examples of members who belong to marginalized groups posing some of the questions that would presumably be deemed objectionable enough to be ban-worthy were the mods to institute the Kree's proposed policy changes (if I'm understanding them correctly). Maintaining both a subforum/safe space for discussion and a subforum/safe space from discussion would hopefully make Era a more welcoming place, both for posters interested in engaging in a broader exchange of ideas, and for posters who want to disengage from all that.

I'm also not sure how "ignorance having a seat at the table" precludes the deeper discussion you describe. This is an electronic message board with multi-quote functionality and threads typically have multiple discussions running concurrently. This is a large community: ignorant or naive questions asked in good faith will invariably be ignored by some, taken on by others. The community plays a large role in driving the conversation and should never feel compelled to educate or even acknowledge anyone. Given the preponderance of "not our job" and "not our problem" comments when it comes to the burden marginalized posters sometimes feel to educate other members, I think we're all on the same page on that.
 

Papa Satanás

Member
Oct 25, 2017
681
no
I do because I hate myself, but I mean...if someone is trying to explain why they were wronged, perhaps explaining it rather going straight for an attack is a better example (they tend to not bother doing that).
Yeah usually not lol. Make it a CAPTCHA before they can submit the form - "I'm not a robot and won't go full asshole"
 

Papa Satanás

Member
Oct 25, 2017
681
no
a lot of universities have hate speech codes to restrict that shit instead of entertaining them

why on earth would anyone want to have "an exchange of ideas" with a bigot on a video game forum
The idea is to avoid an "echochamber", which is just bananas.

I don't wanna be a in a forum where everyone has to like the colour blue, but it would be nice to know hate speechy shitballoons don't get a platform
 

Hobbes

Incident Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
4,278
United States
Resetera doesn’t need to be the place where that kind of discussion happens, though. We’re not a school. Marginalized people want to be able to discuss things too, without constantly being interrupted and having to be educators instead. Cause that’s what happens when things are like this: they can’t discuss things normally.

So how about we prioritize them instead? We won’t have less discussion, we’ll have different, better discussions: one that are less ignorant, but still varied. There are discussions that can never happen as is because we have to allow for ignorance to have a seat at the table.
IM ASSUMING THE PERSON ASKING THE QUESTION IS ASKING IN GOOD FAITH. NOTHING ELSE.

I think there is room for both, don't you?

I genuinely would like to know if the marginalized communities feel that they are interrupted when someone asks a genuine question regarding that community via a new thread or in an OT dedicated to that community.

Additionally, I agree that a google search does not do justice. If I need to understand these marginalized communities better, I often sit back and listen, but sometimes I need something clarified and that sometimes includes moments where I'm not sure what to type into Google to have my specific question answered.

I totally understand the sentiment to not want to answer questions about yourself or the marginalized community you belong to because you're not obligated to answer those questions and the people asking the questions are not owed an answer.

I also understand as someone in a marginalized community myself that if more representation and acceptance of my marginalized community that a level of understanding from those not in that marginalized community is required and is 100% beneficial.

Let me know your thoughts if you'd like, and anyone else that wants to share them please do.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,054
a sunken pirate ship
The idea is to avoid an "echochamber", which is just bananas.
People who complain about this have either never joined commentary or discussion groups where people are coming at ideas from some base level of agreement (i.e., 'the left' is broad but tends to carry with it some base ideas of human dignity)

Or -- and I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this is the more likely option given who and how these people act -- they know the value of likeminded organizing, regularly participate in it, and want to prevent their ideological enemies from doing the same
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
21,040
The idea is to avoid an "echochamber", which is just bananas.

I don't wanna be a in a forum where everyone has to like the colour blue, but it would be nice to know hate speechy shitballoons don't get a platform
I think the concern people have about this is where the official line of bigotry is. For instance I think there are more than a few posters here who believe that all Republicans are bigots - so should anyone who is placing a Republican vote (at a local level) be automatically banned? We don't need to discuss that scenario here, but you see what I mean that the line of bigotry isn't really well defined.
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,971
IM ASSUMING THE PERSON ASKING THE QUESTION IS ASKING IN GOOD FAITH. NOTHING ELSE.

I think there is room for both, don't you?

I genuinely would like to know if the marginalized communities feel that they are interrupted when someone asks a genuine question regarding that community via a new thread or in an OT dedicated to that community.

Additionally, I agree that a google search does not do justice. If I need to understand these marginalized communities better, I often sit back and listen, but sometimes I need something clarified and that sometimes includes moments where I'm not sure what to type into Google to have my specific question answered.

I totally understand the sentiment to not want to answer questions about yourself or the marginalized community you belong to because you're not obligated to answer those questions and the people asking the questions are not owed an answer.

I also understand as someone in a marginalized community myself that if more representation and acceptance of my marginalized community that a level of understanding from those not in that marginalized community is required and is 100% beneficial.

Let me know your thoughts if you'd like, and anyone else that wants to share them please do.
Well, in the specific case of TransERA, there's a Transgender 101 thread for those kinds of inquiries. Maybe we should make 101 threads for all kinds of subgroups, but that's going to be dependent on the group in question and whether or not they have the resources or inclination to field questions like that.
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,544
This is a lie that keeps the gates open just wide enough to let the assholes in.

This is not our problem to solve and ResetEra is not a university, it's a gaming forum. They can get the shit you're suggesting elsewhere. This forum and the people who make it are under no obligation to be all things educational to all people. Being a safe space for minorities is a lofty enough goal as it is. Your pushback here is evidence of that.
I’m not sure how “it’s a video game forum” is an appropriate dismissal to this, but simultaneously this video game forum must also be a safe space for every marginalized group. It’s just as easy to argue that as a video game forum people shouldn’t be congregating here for that.

If this is just a video game forum it makes no sense for this entire thread since the LGBT community can go start their own game forum.
Well, in the specific case of TransERA, there's a Transgender 101 thread for those kinds of inquiries. Maybe we should make 101 threads for all kinds of subgroups, but that's going to be dependent on the group in question and whether or not they have the resources or inclination to field questions like that.
It’d make sense to have links to the 101 threads for contentious topics in related OPs.
 
Last edited:

Kamon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
238
I’m not sure how “it’s a video game forum” is an appropriate dismissal to this, but simultaneously this video game forum must also be a safe space for every marginalized group. [...]

If this is just a video game forum it makes no sense for this entire thread since the LGBT community can go start their own game forum.
I mean... this is sort of why resetera was made? This forum was made since the old forum stopped being a safe space. If you want a video game forum without protection for minorities, go back to NeoGAF tbqh.
 

The Kree

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,289
I’m not sure how “it’s a video game forum” is an appropriate dismissal to this, but simultaneously this video game forum must also be a safe space for every marginalized group. It’s just as easy to argue that as a video game forum people shouldn’t be congregating here for that.

If this is just a video game forum it makes no sense for this entire thread since the LGBT community can go start their own game forum.

It’d make sense to have links to the 101 threads for contentious topics in related OPs.
Missing the point entirely. But I'd love to see you argue that this shouldn't be a safe space for minorities because it's just a video game forum.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,186
I’m not sure how “it’s a video game forum” is an appropriate dismissal to this, but simultaneously this video game forum must also be a safe space for every marginalized group. It’s just as easy to argue that as a video game forum people shouldn’t be congregating here for that.

If this is just a video game forum it makes no sense for this entire thread since the LGBT community can go start their own game forum.

It’d make sense to have links to the 101 threads for contentious topics in related OPs.
The safety and comfort of queer posters shouldn't be a thing up for debate, it should be a baseline expectation for any public forum.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
21,040
I mean... this is sort of why resetera was made? This forum was made since the old forum stopped being a safe space. If you want a video game forum without protection for minorities, go back to NeoGAF tbqh.
The exodus was due to the owner sexually assaulting women. But that aside this was indeed meant to be a safe place.
 

OrIok

Member
Oct 12, 2019
285
I think the idea of various "megathreads" for lack of a better word where volunteers from the communities in question can answer sincere questions from people is a good idea, though I'm not sure how best that would be implemented.

Threads about those communities in general and their issues aren't the place for people to ask questions about their community and the onus shouldn't be placed on the members of those communities to explain anything or answer questions whatsoever.
 

The Kree

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,289
I mean, a forum has historically been a place for the exchange of ideas, not unlike a university, and no one is under any obligation to do or respond to anything. A safe space for voluntary discussion is arguably the raison d'etre for a forum. A moderation policy presuming JAQing every time someone poses a naive question or inadvertently makes an ignorant statement strikes me as antithetical to the spirit of any forum. That said, I hope it's clear I'm not suggesting that prejudiced or intolerant perspectives should be tolerated, or that current moderation policies should be more lax, just that I fear what you propose would quell a lot of interesting discussion that has been edifying for many GAF/Era posters over the years.

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as prioritizing marginalized people. Marginalized groups are not a monolithic entity and there have been plenty examples of members who belong to marginalized groups posing some of the questions that would presumably be deemed objectionable enough to be ban-worthy were the mods to institute the Kree's proposed policy changes (if I'm understanding them correctly). Maintaining both a subforum/safe space for discussion and a subforum/safe space from discussion would hopefully make Era a more welcoming place, both for posters interested in engaging in a broader exchange of ideas, and for posters who want to disengage from all that.

I'm also not sure how "ignorance having a seat at the table" precludes the deeper discussion you describe. This is an electronic message board with multi-quote functionality and threads typically have multiple discussions running concurrently. This is a large community: ignorant or naive questions asked in good faith will invariably be ignored by some, taken on by others. The community plays a large role in driving the conversation and should never feel compelled to educate or even acknowledge anyone. Given the preponderance of "not our job" and "not our problem" comments when it comes to the burden marginalized posters sometimes feel to educate other members, I think we're all on the same page on that.
What you're suggesting is merely maintaining the status quo. Take a look around: the status quo is garbage.
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
5,445
I sure hope the people in here ,who I’ve never seen before in LGBT threads , that are advocating so hard to still be able to “have discussion” and “ ask questions “ in said threads will come with the same amount of energy when it comes to calling out bad fath/ phobic shitposters. Surely they will right ?
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,854
I checked his posts because I lowkey love the guy: he got banned on gaming side in a death stranding topic. if you're reading this, godspeed, good buddy
Yeah, looking like it's just a 5 day. Not quite sure what for, but it looks like he posted spoilers in the Death Stranding thread that a mod had to edit out? Dunno.
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
5,445
Hobbes fam it’s not worth it engaging with some topics on gaming side. You’re doing too much good here being a positive voice against discrimination to catch a ban poking the fervent Kojima fan nest. That’s never gonna end well
 

SweetBellic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,618
because it was all fluff about wanting "interesting discussion" when bigotry doesn't deserve the required attention a discussion would entail
I expressly state the policy against intolerance should stand though. Didn't say anything about entertaining bigotry or hate speech. I was responding to another poster's incredibly strict moderation suggestions that would seem to propose bans for even questions stemming from "sincere ignorance." I agree with you that bigoted viewpoints should not be given a platform for discussion, which is why I don't appreciate you deliberately taking a talking point of mine out of context to misconstrue my intent.