Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - crowdfunding campaign and development updates - Kickstarter live now! (Official turn-based support planned)

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,476
Having just played through Kingmaker, I much prefer Divinity OS combat, both the first and the second game.

The combat in Kingmaker feels so messy, and a lot of the time it's just you either get all your buffs up before combat and you destroy your enemies, or you don't have all your buffs up and you get destroyed. Especially against those endgame enemies that paralyze you for an hour or so unless you got Freedom of Movement buff up on you.
The wild Hunt are actually op and not super well implemented. Owlcat needs more playtesters and better feel for the mechanics. You can't just add +10 across the board and call it a day with a boss. They really need to up the encounter design.
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,476
The extra powerful bosses of the game didn’t give me as much trouble as the Wild Hunt.
I feel that the wild hunt is kind of a perpetual "boss". The way they implemented them just doesn't really work in the context of the Pathfinder mechanics, this is further highlighted by the amount trash mobs of made out of them. Honestly, they're not very well balanced for tabletop either, but at least there you have more options of dealing with their.. abilities.

The way it should work ideally is that every encounter should be a unique puzzle that you use your ever-increasing toolbox of abilities to solve.
 

jerfdr

Member
Dec 14, 2017
546
Having just played through Kingmaker, I much prefer Divinity OS combat, both the first and the second game.

The combat in Kingmaker feels so messy, and a lot of the time it's just you either get all your buffs up before combat and you destroy your enemies, or you don't have all your buffs up and you get destroyed. Especially against those endgame enemies that paralyze you for an hour or so unless you got Freedom of Movement buff up on you.
There exists the excellent Turn Based Combat mod if you feel that RtwP combat is too messy in Kingmaker (and it will be officially integrated into the game in WotR).
 

Euler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,688
The wild Hunt are actually op and not super well implemented. Owlcat needs more playtesters and better feel for the mechanics. You can't just add +10 across the board and call it a day with a boss. They really need to up the encounter design.
Yeah they felt pretty significantly harder than anything else in the game. My cleric had like 4-5 uses of Restoration because every other mob destroyed my attributes in every fight, but I also needed multiple uses of freedom of movement to have any kind of chance against Wild Hunt. Sucks that all I needed was lvl 4 (think it was cleric spells lvl 4) slots, and most other spell slots were near useless for those fights.

I think the game peaked around midgame when you had to deal with all these different threats to your kingdom.
There exists the excellent Turn Based Combat mod if you feel that RtwP combat is too messy in Kingmaker (and it will be officially integrated into the game in WotR).
I'll give it a try in the next game, but I finished the game as is right now. It would've probably been good to use that mod.
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,476
Yeah they felt pretty significantly harder than anything else in the game. My cleric had like 4-5 uses of Restoration because every other mob destroyed my attributes in every fight, but I also needed multiple uses of freedom of movement to have any kind of chance against Wild Hunt. Sucks that all I needed was lvl 4 (think it was cleric spells lvl 4) slots, and most other spell slots were near useless for those fights.

I think the game peaked around midgame when you had to deal with all these different threats to your kingdom.
And in tabletop after the first time you'd just wear a blindfold or fuck them up from air hundreds of feet away.
 

AbsoluteZ3R0

Member
Feb 5, 2019
145
I liked the combat in divinity more than kingmaker. My main problem with kingmaker combat was there was way too many buffs and passive skills rather than active ones. I think they tried to make the game way too closer to the tabletop game, which in some cases caused more harm than good.
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,476
You also wouldn't get like 8 encounters with them in close succession in tabletop, I'd assume.
Not unless your DM hated you and/or was really bad.

I liked the combat in divinity more than kingmaker. My main problem with kingmaker combat was there was way too many buffs and passive skills rather than active ones. I think they tried to make the game way too closer to the tabletop game, which in some cases caused more harm than good.
That's a double-edged sword and you have to walk a pretty thin line to make it work. The Pathfinder mechanics are quite well playtested and all fit together seamlessly, but as a developer you have to have a very good sense of what works in the context of a video game and what doesn't. You obviously need to tweak a lot of it, but also keep the internal logic consistent. Basically any developer dealing with encounters/mechanics needs to think like a DM.

As a rookie video game developer, it is probably safer to lift content wholesale than try to mess with it too much. I hope Owlcat has got a lot of experience with all of this by now and can walk that line.

PS. Also, it's meant to be a turn based game.
 
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ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,939
I just started a new Kingmaker playthrough and all I can say is - I hope there's a "no swarm-type enemies" stretch goal sooner or later.
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,476
I just started a new Kingmaker playthrough and all I can say is - I hope there's a "no swarm-type enemies" stretch goal sooner or later.
It's really hard to make (dnd/pathfinder) swarms work in a video game, they're basically an environmental hazard as much as a creature. They're really easy to kill with AoE spells, but once it envelops you, you're pretty fucked.
 

flashman92

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,410
Sorry if I'm too lazy to read

Is this like Pillars of Eternity? Because I loved that game but had to stop because the loading screens killed my enjoyment of the game.
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,583
To me, Divinity 2 combat was just too messy. Everyone is like a super-mage so any combat has everyone burning, poisoned etc. from the start
This is why I stopped playing DOS2. It's a great game but it just over-whelmed me with shit exploding, fire everywhere poison clouds, water that was being electrified etc...

I felt each fight wasn't so much about my characters as it was about how I could get the enemy to stand next to a barrel I put down that would blow them up in one hit.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,599
Sorry if I'm too lazy to read

Is this like Pillars of Eternity? Because I loved that game but had to stop because the loading screens killed my enjoyment of the game.
Very similar Real time with pause gameplay, yeah. You should like this.

New update on the measures they have implemented in order to release WotR in a (hopefully) much less buggy state than Kingmaker:

That's a nice update, good to see they are taking criticisms and lessons to heart from the launch of the first game.
 

RandomSeed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,878
*Crane style/wing/riposte to be fixed for new game so it doesn't work with absolutely everything"

Noooooooooooooooooo!
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,316
This is why I stopped playing DOS2. It's a great game but it just over-whelmed me with shit exploding, fire everywhere poison clouds, water that was being electrified etc...

I felt each fight wasn't so much about my characters as it was about how I could get the enemy to stand next to a barrel I put down that would blow them up in one hit.
It got stressful in a way. That's when I realized I wasn't enjoying the game.

Took some time to let it sink in because of all the glowing recommendations and reviews.
 

Kientin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
369
I've recently been playing Kingmaker and enjoying it a ton. One thing I hope they do is give us a way to actually adjust the AI in this game. Having one of my characters insist on casting acid splash when she would be much better using her bow with how I built her is really annoying. I did find a work around (right clicking charge to force her to attack since you can't charge with bows) but adjusting that stuff would be nice. With all the options I have at this point I might finally cave and do the turn based mod. I'm just worried that it going to slow down the game a lot. We will see.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,599
I've recently been playing Kingmaker and enjoying it a ton. One thing I hope they do is give us a way to actually adjust the AI in this game. Having one of my characters insist on casting acid splash when she would be much better using her bow with how I built her is really annoying. I did find a work around (right clicking charge to force her to attack since you can't charge with bows) but adjusting that stuff would be nice. With all the options I have at this point I might finally cave and do the turn based mod. I'm just worried that it going to slow down the game a lot. We will see.
Yeah, any modern RTwP game could really benefit from having a robust AI system like Deadfire has.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,752
This is why I stopped playing DOS2. It's a great game but it just over-whelmed me with shit exploding, fire everywhere poison clouds, water that was being electrified etc...

I felt each fight wasn't so much about my characters as it was about how I could get the enemy to stand next to a barrel I put down that would blow them up in one hit.
This is why you become a Barrelmancer.
 

RandomSeed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,878
I hope they do something to make certain 1 level dips less powerful, honestly. 1 level of monk and you get unarmed/crane style, plus a huge AC bonus when not wearing armor. It's too strong. 1 level of Vivi for sneak damage and a useful mutagen.

Kinda wish medium and heavy armor had DR or something to make non-dex "tanks" more useful in general, but I get they are using established rules, so...
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,476
I hope they do something to make certain 1 level dips less powerful, honestly. 1 level of monk and you get unarmed/crane style, plus a huge AC bonus when not wearing armor. It's too strong. 1 level of Vivi for sneak damage and a useful mutagen.

Kinda wish medium and heavy armor had DR or something to make non-dex "tanks" more useful in general, but I get they are using established rules, so...
I mean, you don't have to powergame...

There's a mod that adds armor training feats/options from the rules for fighters which make heavy armor way better. Hopefully this will also be implemented in Wrath.
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,476
That's true of course, but it feels like it effects balance. Make armor wearing more appealing and the dip doesn't matter so much. Similar with how easy sneak attacks are to pull off.
Armor does need a buff and the fix is (mostly) already in the rules, Owlcat was just a bit weird about which feat trees they included and which ones they omitted. There's also a slew of amazing armor and shield enchantments that make them much more useful, but Owlcat really screwed up the magical item part of the game. Sometimes I still think of how amazing the crafting was in Temple of Elemental Evil.