On Voting or Not Voting for Biden in Light of the Sexual Assault Allegations |OT| Discussion Guidelines in OP

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
Poodlestrike I gotta say man, your OP sucks. It's too clinical and drains the argument against Biden of all emotional impact. And like several others have said, it doesn't discuss his assault history. You should have someone else re-write the OP, or better yet, leave it blank. You don't need to summarize people's feelings on the matter, they'll do that in the htread. The way it reads now is more suggestive that maybe you think it is.

But on the whole, this thread isn't appropriate. This thread is a reaction to the story about Biden's rape allegations and you don't even mention it in the OP. It comes across as staff trying to silence discourse or correct people's thoughts on the matter regardless of your intention. If you want this to be a Biden OT, remove all editorializing in your OP. Better yet though, remove this thread. It's entirely unnecessary.

You don't have to participate in it. You can use this thread instead:

 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,168
Sorry, but as a black woman I'm not putting my fucking vote for the guy who intentionally designed an enforcement system meant to arrest and beat up black people for no reason legally.

Truthfully I would of simply not voted and protest on the streets, but I would of picked Donald Trump over that shit bag.
That's understandable.

Personally, as a Puerto Rican who went 3 months without power, running water, or cellphone service in the aftermath of hurricane Maria, I'm *never* voting for the guy who left thousands of my compatriots to die, and who humiliated us by throwing rolls of paper towels into crowds of my desperate compatriots, while all 3 million of us were living in squalor. And just like nobody here has any right to tell you that you are wrong for thinking the way that you do, nobody will ever succeed in shaming me into not voting for Biden over Trump if he ends up being the nominee.
 

mddover

Member
Jan 9, 2019
23
Denton, Texas
In a lot of respects this issue seems like a utilitarianism test case, with some of the arguments in favor of voting for Biden explicitly using utilitarian thought experiments such as the trolley problem. Where I think some of the disconnect is occurring though is that much of left/liberal political theory is a reaction against utilitarianism (that's my understanding anyway, I'm not a political scientist - in particular I'm thinking of John Rawls). So, even if people aren't thinking about it in exactly this way, there may be those on the left who naturally bristle a bit when minimizing total suffering is taken to be the main consideration and that an individual's personal anguish is viewed as less valid.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do, yet. I'm not convinced that there's a clear "right" choice here.
 
Mar 10, 2018
2,610
I always, always, always vote for the lesser evil.

I don't see how I could look at myself in the mirror otherwise. These days, not doing the bare minimum of voting for Trump's opponent means implicitly helping him cage children and oppress minorities and I'm definitely not ok with that. Would YOU be? If the president was promising to break both your legs and your best friend voted for him because the economy, would he still be your best friend? Yeah...I don't think so.

And don't even get me started on global warming...

Frankly, it's not that hard to vote for the lesser evil. I would really appreciate it if everybody just embraced that maxim. Like I quoted earlier today:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Don't let evil triumph. I beg of you.
Evil is triumphing either way.
 

Studge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
723
I feel that if you can't eliminate harm then harm reduction should be the goal. I believe Tara, I believe Biden is a gross person and bad candidate, and in this trolley problem of an election I'll vote for him against Trump if that's what it comes to. Trump as president is a path to the death and destruction of people, our laws, and our planet. This is why postion #1 from the op makes the most sense to me. Everything about this sucks.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
In a lot of respects this issue seems like a utilitarianism test case, with some of the arguments in favor of voting for Biden explicitly using utilitarian thought experiments such as the trolley problem. Where I think some of the disconnect is occurring though is that much of left/liberal political theory is a reaction against utilitarianism (that's my understanding anyway, I'm not a political scientist - in particular I'm thinking of John Rawls). So, even if people aren't thinking about it in exactly this way, there may be those on the left who naturally bristle a bit when minimizing total suffering is taken to be the main consideration and that an individual's personal anguish is viewed as less valid.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do, yet. I'm not convinced that there's a clear "right" choice here.

I think that's fair. Do the soul searching and then do what you think is right. That's all I'd ask of anyone.

Though I do hope you still vote downballot.
 

BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,664
You don't have to participate in it. You can use this thread instead:

This thread is being made for the purpose to replace all other Biden threads which makes it the go to place for Biden discourse on this site. But you bring up a good point. Why have this thread at all when that one exists?
 

Wazzy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
Not wanting to vote for a rapist isn’t an excuse and you shouldn’t try to downplay this very serious issue.
You are choosing to prioritize your feelings over the rights of marginalized groups. I'm not ever going to think it's acceptable to throw millions under the bus just so you can feel better about your choice. There is multiple things at stake here and what should be prioritized is the choice that won't risk the lives and rights of millions of Americans.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
979
The implication of my statement wasn't that you don't read the news at all, but that you come off as uninformed or willfully blind to Trump's mountain of offenses, and the consequences of the incompetence and malice that he displays daily.
The big mistake posters here keep making when people say they will not vote for Biden is the exact assumption you made above about me. Some would argue I'm way too fucking informed for how angry I get about politics on a daily basis.
But goddamit I'm so fucking tired of constantly voting 'Blue No Matter Who' with zero goddamn payoff for always walking lock step. We get shit candidates because we don't demand better. The DNC knows that no matter fucking what as long as the Republicans can somehow manage to do worse than last year they can always field these increasingly right wing shit candidates and instead of spending that energy getting mad at the DNC for making support for their candidates easier by fielding people that live up to their ideals you are spending it here calling people privileged and ignorant for starting to see less and less the difference between Trump and whatever limp wristed old creep the DNC comes up with next.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
This thread is being made for the purpose to replace all other Biden threads which makes it the go to place for Biden discourse on this site. But you bring up a good point. Why have this thread at all when that one exists?

It's not replacing all the Biden threads, it's replacing all the "You should/shouldn't vote for Biden because..." threads. The other thread I posted still existing is proof enough of that.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,537
You are choosing to prioritize your feelings over the rights of marginalized groups. I'm not ever going to think it's acceptable to throw millions under the bus just so you can feel better about your choice. There is multiple things at stake here and what should be prioritized is the choice that won't risk the lives and rights of millions of Americans.
Calling disgust for rapists just “feelings” is incredibly reductive. Jesus.
 

BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,664
It's not replacing all the Biden threads, it's replacing all the "You should/shouldn't vote for Biden because..." threads. The other thread I posted still existing is proof enough of that.
There was only 3 other threads about voting. The one that Xas made was misrepresented in this OP. I see no reason why you can't have 3 voting threads on this issue.

On top of that, this thread put "Vote for Biden" at top billing. The OP title is leading too. "The Merits of Voting Biden 2020" makes it sound like a suggestion.

Again I'm not saying you can't have this thread, just that it was done poorly and I personally think it's better to have multiple OPs from people who are actually invested in their own arguments.
 

Oniletter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,221
Anyone but Trump. My moral/political compass and my pragmatism would boil down to that at the end of the day if I were an American citizen. The world literally can't afford a second Trump term.
The election would still be held even if I'd personally hate both candidates to the marrow and I'd recognise my duty and responsibility to vote for the lesser of two evils.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
979
That's understandable.

Personally, as a Puerto Rican who went 3 months without power, running water, or cellphone service in the aftermath of hurricane Maria, I'm *never* voting for the guy who left thousands of my compatriots to die, and who humiliated us by throwing rolls of paper towels into crowds of my desperate compatriots, while all 3 million of us were living in squalor. And just like nobody here has any right to tell you that you are wrong for thinking the way that you do, nobody will ever succeed in shaming me into not voting for Biden over Trump if he ends up being the nominee.
And that's completely valid. We all deserve so much better than this fucking mess. My anger is more directed at users who keep supporting candidates based on 'electability' then continually get angry at a variety of Democratic voters sitting out. Yet they don't want to have any sort of self reflection about WHY they keep voting for these candidates just because they 'win' better.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
17,665
You are choosing to prioritize your feelings over the rights of marginalized groups. I'm not ever going to think it's acceptable to throw millions under the bus just so you can feel better about your choice. There is multiple things at stake here and what should be prioritized is the choice that won't risk the lives and rights of millions of Americans.
And many of us have been saying that falling in line over and over again for someone like Biden is only in turn going to continue giving us moderates like biden. The train needs to stop somewhere. Everytime its "nows not the time, nows the time to fall in line, maybe next time we can get someone that will actually fight for these issues instead of just being marginally better than the republican guy". The only issue is, that time is literally never going to come because we just keep supporting the person who isn't going to fix anything, theyre just not going to make it actively worse. At some point we either realize doing the same thing over and over again isn't working and try something else or recognize were not for fighting for whats right because its not the time. Like christ this has been said since MLK 60 years ago and were still telling people now is not the time to stand up and fight for whats right.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
12,944
a sunken pirate ship
My anger is more directed at users who keep supporting candidates based on 'electability' then continually get angry at a variety of Democratic voters sitting out. Yet they don't want to have any sort of self reflection about WHY they keep voting for these candidates just because they 'win' better.
You bring up a good point. What the fuck does "electable" mean if not "actually it's not that hard to convince someone else to vote for them"

(I mean I know the answer. It's the same thing as "presedential". It's either a tone argument or what Ben Rhodes called The Blob rewarding an act of aggression)
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,310
We literally keep around posters who advocate for war crimes and killing muslims (and then ban muslim posters for having strong reactions to those posts). We keep around people joking about voting for hitler. We downplay and try to white wash rape allegation threads about the democratic front runner. Were not as brazenly stupid and outwardly disgusting, but we are no better.
The reason this thread and mine existed is because of this: "This is a thread about sexual assault allegations, not the primary as a whole. This isn't a place to discuss why a particular candidate did or did not do well in the primary, but to discuss the allegations and any potential ramifications they might have. Please do not derail the thread with general discussion or trolling."

That is what everyone agreed on for discussion of those topics. You don't bring up why people may feel they have to vote for someone no matter what in a thread that is SPECIFICALLY about an allegation. So yeah when I read in THAT thread and others that people shouldn't vote I won't mention it in that thread, but I'll post it in THIS thread which discusses why people feel like they have to vote in this election. Or in my own I made.

And no this place is nothing like the other place. It's definitely not perfect but it's made great strides to get better.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
( •̀ω•́ ) 🖤
I just think...maybe the timing of this thread is off considering we JUST had a rape allegation.

It’s like, “Well, it’s possible he stuck his fingers in her pussy, but here’s why you should vote for him!”

Which is...extremely tone-deaf. It makes me uncomfortable. Am I alone in this?
 

BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,664
I just think...maybe the timing of this thread is off considering we JUST had a rape allegation.

It’s like, “Well, it’s possible he stuck his fingers in her pussy, but here’s why you should vote for him!”

Which is...extremely tone-deaf. It makes me uncomfortable. Am I alone in this?
With you 100%
 

Wazzy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
And many of us have been saying that falling in line over and over again for someone like Biden is only in turn going to continue giving us moderates like biden. The train needs to stop somewhere. Everytime its "nows not the time, nows the time to fall in line, maybe next time we can get someone that will actually fight for these issues instead of just being marginally better than the republican guy". The only issue is, that time is literally never going to come because we just keep supporting the person who isn't going to fix anything, theyre just not going to make it actively worse. At some point we either realize doing the same thing over and over again isn't working and try something else or recognize were not for fighting for whats right because its not the time. Like christ this has been said since MLK 60 years ago and were still telling people now is not the time to stand up and fight for whats right.
The only time you will ever make this drastic change you expect is during the Primaries. Americans failed to do that.

Not voting in this presidential elections does nothing. Bernie and Warren WERE progressives and they couldn't secure the vote. Unless things change over the next two weeks(again THIS IS THE TIME TO MAKE THAT CHANGE) then Biden is the nominee and should be voted for against Trump. Biden is shit. I think he is awful and I fully believe he is a rapist. I would still vote for him to secure my and other marginalized groups rights from being stomped on by Trump.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
America
Evil is triumphing either way.
That's why I added the word "lesser" in front of my evil. Because degrees matter. Stealing a man's nickel is not the same as stealing his entire lifesavings. I truly don't think my position is in the least bit original, interesting or controversial. This is my position in a nutshell:

"In an imperfect world, we strive to do the best we can."
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
17,665
I agree. I just went double checked and they definitely still have the "Tits look really good on TV" thread and the politics section is literally just The_Donald with less people.


Era has it's issues at times, but we are not that. We are nowhere near that.
Talking about war crimes that killed hundreds of thousands of people as good and necessary is about as bad as anything you can post. Hell in this thread we had someone saying they would vote for Hitler. I'm sorry were not that much better. Thats like some of the most heinous shit you can say.
 

Owl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,007
California
You are choosing to prioritize your feelings over the rights of marginalized groups. I'm not ever going to think it's acceptable to throw millions under the bus just so you can feel better about your choice. There is multiple things at stake here and what should be prioritized is the choice that won't risk the lives and rights of millions of Americans.
This is really what it comes down to. Victims of sexual abuse are right to be pissed off at the whole country for putting up two rapists as the next potential president. Now that that has been decided already, then voting for the one who will endanger less lives in the next 30+ years is the next step to take.

If you do care about victims then you need to make the choice that would lessen how many future victims there will be.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
So we are at the point where we have to vote for a rapist or we are the bad guys. This is a really compelling argument that will definitely convince people.
I'm not here to convince people anymore. I'm already stunned people need to be convinced.

I'm full on telling people why I think it's awful to not vote. Change your mind or don't. Just remember you're risking peoples rights(and a multitude of other horrifying things e.g protection for abuse/sexual assault victims) so that you can feel better about yourself.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,510
USA
I just think...maybe the timing of this thread is off considering we JUST had a rape allegation.

It’s like, “Well, it’s possible he stuck his fingers in her pussy, but here’s why you should vote for him!”

Which is...extremely tone-deaf. It makes me uncomfortable. Am I alone in this?
No. I'm yelling into a void

Guess it's my feelings acting up again
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
979
You bring up a good point. What the fuck does "electable" mean if not "actually it's not that hard to convince someone else to vote for them"

(I mean I know the answer. It's the same thing as "presedential". It's either a tone argument or what Ben Rhodes called The Blob rewarding an act of aggression)
moderates never have to compromise for anything.
It's always Leftists and vulnerable demographics that have to continuously pull the bullet on ourselves to appease them. This country is so sad.
 

harSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,931
Good for you can stomach Stop and fucking Frisk. As for me if we are in a situation where the Democratic moderates will unironically field Michael Fucking Bloomberg against Donald Trump then I would of left the Democratic party for being a load of horseshit.
Demand fucking better than that. These comparisons are fucking dystopia tier.
It is dystopia tier. That's the point. I'm pretty much saying that I would vote for someone who shares 15% of my stances and will not nominate a Conservative to the Supreme Court, versus someone who shares 0% of my stances and will nominate a Right Winger whose barely old enough to buy a drink to the Supreme Court.
 
Mar 10, 2018
2,610
I would vote for the lesser evil as well. This world is far from perfect.
My question is, when do we draw the line? If a Republican candidate rapes 100 people, but a Democratic candidate only rapes 25, do we vote for the Democratic candidate just because they have (D) next to their name? Just because they are the “lesser” evil?

So as long as Republicans are more evil than Democrats, we just have to stomach whoever the Democratic nominee is, no matter how evil they are?

Yes, I know that life is full of uneasy choices like that, and that we don’t really have any other options. But let’s call it like it is: lesser or not, both outcomes are evil.
 
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jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
17,665
moderates never have to compromise for anything.
It's always Leftists and vulnerable demographics that have to continuously pull the bullet on ourselves to appease them. This country is so sad.
Bingo.

This is really what it comes down to. Victims of sexual abuse are right to be pissed off at the whole country for putting up two rapists as the next potential president. Now that that has been decided already, then voting for the one who will endanger less lives in the next 30+ years is the next step to take.

If you do care about victims then you need to make the choice that would lessen how many future victims there will be.
Vote in the rapist to protect victims of sexual violence.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
979
If you do care about victims then you need to make the choice that would lessen how many future victims there will be.
If you care about victims than you would be using the 5 fucking months we have before the primary to boot Biden off the fucking ticket and field somebody else than coming online and telling sexual assault victims to put up and shut up and vote for Biden the rapist because 'Trump the rapist bad' in the General Election.
 

Breqesk

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,916
You are choosing to prioritize your feelings over the rights of marginalized groups. I'm not ever going to think it's acceptable to throw millions under the bus just so you can feel better about your choice. There is multiple things at stake here and what should be prioritized is the choice that won't risk the lives and rights of millions of Americans.
This could not be a more straightforward example of breaking the rule from the OP if you tried:

'Likewise, do not accuse members of not caring about marginalized people if they choose to not vote. '

You even used the exact terminology.

If the OP rules aren't going to be enforced, at all, just get rid of them.
 

Labor

Member
Mar 18, 2020
112
I get that this thread is supposed to be a containment unit of sorts, but the title and framing seem counterproductive to anything but further stoking the anger, hyperbole, and horrible analogies infecting every other thread even tangentially related to the election.

Echoing some sentiments posted earlier, trying to change someone’s mind about abstaining is pointless.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,510
USA
You are choosing to prioritize your feelings over the rights of marginalized groups. I'm not ever going to think it's acceptable to throw millions under the bus just so you can feel better about your choice. There is multiple things at stake here and what should be prioritized is the choice that won't risk the lives and rights of millions of Americans.
Whew. This is one hell of a take
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,797
The big mistake posters here keep making when people say they will not vote for Trump is exactly the assumption you made above about me. Some would argue I'm way too fucking informed for how angry I get about politics on a daily basis.
But goddamit I'm so fucking tired of constantly voting 'Blue No Matter Who' with zero goddamn payoff for always walking lock step. We get shit candidates because we don't demand better. The DNC knows that no matter fucking what as long as the Republicans can somehow manage to do worse than last year they can always field these increasingly right wing shit candidates and instead of spending that energy getting mad at the DNC for making support for their candidates easier by fielding people that live up to their ideals you are spending it here calling people privileged and ignorant for starting to see less and less the difference between Trump and whatever limp wristed old creep the DNC comes up with next.
You're going to have to wait for a lot more boomers to die off before you have a hope of changing the status quo.

I'm disgusted with the state of this country's politics too, but I'm not willing to sacrifice decades of progress and thousands of lives for idealism. This is the worst possible time to demand revolutionary change. There is zero momentum for it. The public is not primed for it. We need stability and the reassuring mediocrity of an aging white man to entice the moderates who might otherwise vote Trump back into office.

Another four years of Trump would be a disaster for everyone except rich white people. And even they'd be screwed in the end, because the environment isn't going to fix itself, and our foreign enemies aren't going to rest on their laurels until we get an adult back in charge.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
This could not be a more straightforward example of breaking the rule from the OP if you tried:

'Likewise, do not accuse members of not caring about marginalized people if they choose to not vote. '

You even used the exact terminology.

If the OP rules aren't going to be enforced, at all, just get rid of them.
I'll take the ban then. I will always speak out against decisions that will impact millions in a horrible way and if that goes against the OP then so be it.

Mods you can ban me if you need to uphold the rules.

Whew. This is one hell of a take
One that you can't argue against because not voting does nothing. Not voting doesn't change anything. Voting does. It's simple.
 

SoZetaSlow

Member
Sep 20, 2019
1,054
I just think...maybe the timing of this thread is off considering we JUST had a rape allegation.

It’s like, “Well, it’s possible he stuck his fingers in her pussy, but here’s why you should vote for him!”

Which is...extremely tone-deaf. It makes me uncomfortable. Am I alone in this?
No you see we have to have this conversation which portrays the only options as Biden v Trump now, even though we currently have the ability to prevent Biden from being the candidate and have literally just had the bombshell of this allegation because...
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,510
USA
I'll take the ban then. I will always speak out against decisions that will impact millions in a horrible way.


One that you can't argue against because not voting does nothing. Not voting doesn't change anything. Voting does. It's simple.
No one said anything about not voting. I'm voting, but not for Biden. I am not going to vote for a rapist and no amount of shaming is going to change that. You're arguing that sexual assault victims need to vote for someone accused of rape.. for the good of sexual assault victims.

That is all kinds of fucked
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
253
In a lot of respects this issue seems like a utilitarianism test case, with some of the arguments in favor of voting for Biden explicitly using utilitarian thought experiments such as the trolley problem. Where I think some of the disconnect is occurring though is that much of left/liberal political theory is a reaction against utilitarianism (that's my understanding anyway, I'm not a political scientist - in particular I'm thinking of John Rawls). So, even if people aren't thinking about it in exactly this way, there may be those on the left who naturally bristle a bit when minimizing total suffering is taken to be the main consideration and that an individual's personal anguish is viewed as less valid.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do, yet. I'm not convinced that there's a clear "right" choice here.
What you said really appears to be the case here. It is a trolley experiment, and there is the side which are advocating of abstaining from voting for Biden are on the position of a moral imperative (deontology). On the opposition, people that are suggesting that we cannot have another term of Trump falls on the side of consequentialism.

Not trying to minimize individuals that may have experienced sexual assault or have friends and family that experienced these sorts of trauma, it's seems to me that this can be viewed as a long game or a short game goals. If Biden did indeed sexually assaulted someone, then it's understandable why we are getting the reactions from many people that suggest it's morally impossible to vote for him.

I fall on the side that I cannot tolerate or in good conscience contribute to another 4 years of Trump, and the long game we must take is to stop another Trump term as much as possible, despite the failings of our presumptuous nominee that is likely to be Biden. Too many issues are on the line, e.g., climate change, minority rights, racist stoking from a white supremacist president/cabinet, world economy, and ability to handle our current health crisis, and this is a short list of issues that I and many have with the current executive branch.

Long story short, this is a freaking mess, and we Americans have been dealt with a bad hand if Biden ultimately becomes the nominee. We just have to make the choice the minimizes the harm to the world, that is likely to just hold your nose and vote for Biden ... unfortunately.
 

Shaun Solo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
769
I just think...maybe the timing of this thread is off considering we JUST had a rape allegation.

It’s like, “Well, it’s possible he stuck his fingers in her pussy, but here’s why you should vote for him!”

Which is...extremely tone-deaf. It makes me uncomfortable. Am I alone in this?
In total agreement.

Also, separate issue, but the constant concern trolling about voting downballot is so tiresome.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
21,657
DFW, Texas
Talking about war crimes that killed hundreds of thousands of people as good and necessary is about as bad as anything you can post. Hell in this thread we had someone saying they would vote for Hitler. I'm sorry were not that much better. Thats like some of the most heinous shit you can say.
Like I said. I strongly disagree and I'm sorry you feel that way about this community. That's all I'll say.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,319
Atlanta GA
One that you can't argue against because not voting does nothing. Not voting doesn't change anything. Voting does. It's simple.
Just to be clear you are arguing that sexual assault victims who refuse to vote for Biden are putting their personal feelings above other marginalized groups? Or sexual assault victims aren't themselves a marginalized group?

Is rape trauma a less valid feeling than racial violence trauma? Do you have a diagram I can look at?
 

BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,664
Dems: Why do we keep losing all the time?!?! It must be the voters faults!

Also Dems: Okay yeah our candidate is awful, uninspiring, boring, and did some horrible things but lesser of two evils right?