On Voting or Not Voting for Biden in Light of the Sexual Assault Allegations |OT| Discussion Guidelines in OP

Oct 25, 2017
1,049
Konoha
In refence to #2 People and especially people here(because ERA claims to be a progressive forum) shouldn't be using the suffering of marginalized groups(mostly latino people suffering under trumps racist immigration policy) as a cudgel against black people and other marginalized groups for not wanting to vote for "lesser of two evils" to stop trump due to the harm they caused us. It is fucking DISGUSTING that the struggles of marginalized groups are pitted against each other.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
253
In refence to #2 People and especially people here(because ERA claims to be a progressive forum) shouldn't be using the suffering of marginalized groups(mostly latino people suffering under trumps racist immigration policy) as a cudgel against black people and other marginalized groups for not wanting to vote for "lesser of two evils" to stop trump due to the harm they caused us. It is fucking DISGUSTING that the struggles of marginalized groups are pitted against each other.
Nobody is pitting one marginalized group against another, most people are simply stating that if it really came down to it in the GE, Trump's stench is overwhelmingly bad compared to Biden's, and nobody is at all defending the allegations against Biden.

Some of you posters are just ridiculous. Most posts I've read that are willing to vote blue for pres. is only doing so because what other choice is there if it's between Biden and Trump. One is clearly and should be obvious to all is the worse option. We live in a two party political system, and unless Biden steps down from the race or some other unforeseen event happens between now and November, Biden is likely to be the Dem nomination.

What do you want us to do when the dismantling of our democratic society has been occurring the last 3+ years and going. Trump has already been given a free ticket to break any law he wants, and that's due to Senate Republicans not having any decency/spine to do the right thing during the impeachment trial.

We don't have the luxury to live through another term of Trump, and I'm sure that's where a lot of people land when they have to have to pinch their noses to vote Biden when the alternative is a monumentally worse choice that will worsen our society for decades to come.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,049
Konoha
As i said in another thread if trump wins a second term black people will end up with what? Fewer resources? Left out of the conversation? Abusive police? Crumbling schools? Racism? these things already happen. The threat for me and other black people is not trump but the institutionalized and systematic racism that was always present in America since slavery and neither trump nor biden will do anything to radically change/fix these structural problems.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
As i said in another thread if trump wins a second term black people will end up with what? Fewer resources? Left out of the conversation? Abusive police? Crumbling schools? Racism? these things already happen. The threat for me and other black people is not trump but the institutionalized and systematic racism that was always present in America since slavery and neither trump nor biden will do anything to radically change/fix these structural problems.
Biden wants to decriminalize marijuana and overturn convictions. He also wants to end the cash bail system that keeps people in jail just because they can't afford bail as well as ending private prisons. He wants to invest $70 billion dollars in HBCUs and MSIs. He wants to restore the Voting Rights Act and use the Justice Department to investigate suppression efforts. He also wants to use the Justice Department to investigate systemic misconduct in police departments and prosecutor's offices.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
12,944
a sunken pirate ship
Wasn't there a box with a message from staff just above the post entry form here that had specific discussion guidelines about the specifics of the primary/nominee not being the subject here? Am I confusing this with another thread?

I mean it's fine if it was here and wasn't removed, it's just strange to have seen it go without any comment from the staff/moderation on that. If I'm not misremembering maybe it's something up with my browser -- is it still up for other people?

I'm not asking this because I'm concerned about the specifics of discussion -- far from it, if we want to discuss the primary at large in here then fine by me -- but because it's now been a couple weeks of me cooped up in my house and I want to make sure I'm not losing my mind or something.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
Wasn't there a box with a message from staff just above the post entry form here that had specific discussion guidelines about the specifics of the primary/nominee not being the subject here? Am I confusing this with another thread?

I mean it's fine if it was here and wasn't removed, it's just strange to have seen it go without any comment from the staff/moderation on that. If I'm not misremembering maybe it's something up with my browser -- is it still up for other people?

I'm not asking this because I'm concerned about the specifics of discussion -- far from it, if we want to discuss the primary at large in here then fine by me -- but because it's now been a couple weeks of me cooped up in my house and I want to make sure I'm not losing my mind or something.

I think you're thinking of the Intercept Time's Up thread:

 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
253
Wasn't there a box with a message from staff just above the post entry form here that had specific discussion guidelines about the specifics of the primary/nominee not being the subject here? Am I confusing this with another thread?

I mean it's fine if it was here and wasn't removed, it's just strange to have seen it go without any comment from the staff/moderation on that. If I'm not misremembering maybe it's something up with my browser -- is it still up for other people?

I'm not asking this because I'm concerned about the specifics of discussion -- far from it, if we want to discuss the primary at large in here then fine by me -- but because it's now been a couple weeks of me cooped up in my house and I want to make sure I'm not losing my mind or something.
You're not going crazy,

"This is a thread about sexual assault allegations, not the primary as a whole. This isn't a place to discuss why a particular candidate did or did not do well in the primary, but to discuss the allegations and any potential ramifications they might have. Please do not derail the thread with general discussion or trolling."

The above is from the "you're nothing, Joe Biden" thread.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
12,944
a sunken pirate ship
I think you're thinking of the Intercept Time's Up thread:

Yeah I clicked back on that and that's probably it. Having trouble keeping all these threads straight
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
253
As i said in another thread if trump wins a second term black people will end up with what? Fewer resources? Left out of the conversation? Abusive police? Crumbling schools? Racism? these things already happen. The threat for me and other black people is not trump but the institutionalized and systematic racism that was always present in America since slavery and neither trump nor biden will do anything to radically change/fix these structural problems.
Just pointing out, each and everyone one of these things you listed plus more can be much much worse. Abusive police for example was a much larger problem prior to Obama implementing body cams to help accountability. It is true that our countries police culture is a much larger problem in general, but I'm just saying that these things can all become worse for many parts of the country with a white supremacist president that is largely unaccountable for his racial stroking behavior, whether that's due to changes in policy or simply racially charged tweets that embolden racists in this country and the world.
 

GeminiX7

Member
Feb 6, 2019
532
I believe the victim.

That said, can anyone who is abstaining from voting willing to say that they are willing to give Trump, his Cabinet and his other cronies 4 more years of power and another possible SC pick just to keep Biden out of office?

I'm not arguing it shouldn't be someone, anyone better. I'm not arguing that we would be anything close to better served by a moderate who can "reach across" the aisle or any of that nonsense.

I'm asking is that after seeing the people hurt, the lives lost, and the systems flagrantly abused for the last 4 years, another 4 years of that is still "better than Joe Biden"?

You can't really make the argument that people are callous and putting their own needs over those of a victim(when speaking of people still willing to vote Biden) while arguing that the Hispanic, Muslim, Chinese, LBGT, etc communities adversely affected by Trump and his ilk can just "suffer through it" if the alternative means that you are forced to vote for Biden (and everyone who comes with him).

If you are okay with that, then that's fine I guess, but if you aren't willing to face that point I don't think there's any point to you grumbling about "moderates" willing to stomach Biden in the general election if it means ousting Trump.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
I can't condemn dreamers and immigrants to any more of the current policy. I simply cannot do it even with what Biden has been accused of.
 

ChippyTurtle

Member
Oct 13, 2018
1,773
I can't condemn dreamers and immigrants to any more of the current policy. I simply cannot do it even with what Biden has been accused of.
I have no doubt if he wins, he'll deport the dreamers, and the veto will beat a D Congress. There's literally nothing to stop him, the Republican Party has been so pro-Trump they'll cheer him on. The supreme Court will just throw the case out and that's that, every dreamer will be out and we can't do anything about that. There's 700k of them and I can't let them down. I won't let that orange piece of shit throw Americans out like trash.

Maybe, just maybe we can get the trifecta and we can finally pass immigration reform that'll save the dreamers. I'm voting blue no matter what.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
Maybe, just maybe we can get the trifecta and we can finally pass immigration reform that'll save the dreamers. I'm voting blue no matter what.
That's probably the only chance they have. Like reinstituting DACA isn't enough. Who wants to come forward knowing what the next administration might do to them? It has to be done legislatively.
 

ChippyTurtle

Member
Oct 13, 2018
1,773
The only reason he hasn't thrown out the dreamers is cause of court challenges, the policy itself is dead. The court will decide in 2020 and then it's over. We gotta get him out in November or that's it for 700,000 people. They'll be arrested by ICE and deported.
 

Tiger Priest

Member
Oct 24, 2017
522
New York, NY
Should have nominated the gay dude or a woman instead.

Let the matter be adjudicated but I'm voting blue no matter who. You're voting for the whole cabinet/bureaucracy, not just the guy at the top.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,780
Nobody is pitting one marginalized group against another, most people are simply stating that if it really came down to it in the GE, Trump's stench is overwhelmingly bad compared to Biden's, and nobody is at all defending the allegations against Biden.

Some of you posters are just ridiculous. Most posts I've read that are willing to vote blue for pres. is only doing so because what other choice is there if it's between Biden and Trump. One is clearly and should be obvious to all is the worse option. We live in a two party political system, and unless Biden steps down from the race or some other unforeseen event happens between now and November, Biden is likely to be the Dem nomination.
you know what would be unforseen? Biden having to face the allegations and having the media actually question him and his people on this.

we are by no means "stuck" with Joe Biden.
 

ChippyTurtle

Member
Oct 13, 2018
1,773
700,000 people are slated for deportation and the only thing that can stop it is removing Trump from office. DACA has already been ended, unless we get a supermajority in Congress to pass immigration reform (not possible in 2020), the Supreme Court will approve the ending of DACA, and if Trump wins, he will deport them and nothing can stop it from happening. ICE will deploy and mass-arrest people, and they already know the location of every single one of them and will have 4 years to do so.

The reality is simply this, if Trump remains in office, the dreamers will be expelled from the U.S. Not even voting blue down-ballot will save them, the numbers in Congress won't get us past a presidential veto. Biden is a moderate yes, Biden would never ever walk away from Obama's DACA policy. He will ensure the dreamers won't be deported.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,298
New York City
I had to chose which of my nurses to expose themselves to Covid-19 in order to help patients in my unit. I may soon have to decide with doctors which one of my patients should get a respirator...

Nothing, NOTHING will stop me from voting out this president. I will drag every soul, every acquaintance, every single person within my reach will get it form me. No matter what Biden or whoever has against him. You can never take Trump out of the equation and his menace is a blight across humanity that is not equaled by any candidate. The choice is clear. And honestly those who try to rationalize letting this filth in the white continue to be president are delivering to me and all of my colleges a personal fucking insult.

Vote Blue no matter who. You're god damned right.
 
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Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,310
In refence to #2 People and especially people here(because ERA claims to be a progressive forum) shouldn't be using the suffering of marginalized groups(mostly latino people suffering under trumps racist immigration policy) as a cudgel against black people and other marginalized groups for not wanting to vote for "lesser of two evils" to stop trump due to the harm they caused us. It is fucking DISGUSTING that the struggles of marginalized groups are pitted against each other.
I'm a black dude and I'm saying if Trump wins not just black people or Latino people, but all minority/ marginalized people are fucked.. So yeah lesser of two evils. All this "oh don't guilt me" bullshit is crap. Getting mad because people are telling people that in a two party system, a vote for anyone but Biden counts for Trump is dumb because in our system it is! Don't believe me? Ask Hillary how those few thousand protest votes for Jill Stein and Gary Johnson worked out.

If its inconvenient or makes someone uncomfortable to hear that their protest vote against Biden will give Trump, a Nazi wannabe gangster and the worst president in history and a despot a second term good. You should and you need to know.

And if you need more proof? Read this post about the Pandemic:
I had to chose which of my nurses to expose themselves to Covid-19 in order to help patients in my unit. I may soon have to decide with doctors which one of my patients should get a respirator...

Nothing, NOTHING will stop me from voting out this president. I will drag every soul, every acquaintance, every single person within my reach will get it form me. No matter what Biden or whoever has against him. You can never take Trump out of the equation and his menace is a blight across humanity that is not equaled by any candidate. The choice is clear. And honestly those who try to rationalize letting this filth in the white continue to be president re delivering to me and all of my colleges a personal fucking insult.

Vote Blue no matter who. You're god damned right.
Nothing more needs to be said.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
253
you know what would be unforseen? Biden having to face the allegations and having the media actually question him and his people on this.

we are by no means "stuck" with Joe Biden.
I'd much rather just about anyone from the primaries to be the nom (I much rather it be Warren or Bernie), but why don't we see how this shakes out with the media. As things stand he is the presumptive nominee, and things can change between now and Nov. But, until that happens, Biden is still the presumptive nominee.
 

Yasuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,589
I was on the fence about even participating in this election to begin with (Biden? Word?), but now I'm fairly certain I'll be abstaining in November.

This whole process just...makes me ill.
 

HylianSeven

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,700

It doesn't matter, no one's going to vote for him anyway.
Yep, even before these allegations came out I resigned to the fact that we're fucked come November.

I'll still vote for Biden (if and when he wins the nomination, even though I really hope that doesn't happen) in November, but I have no hope for this election at this point. I just feel defeated. I bet he doesn't even win the popular vote against Trump and will lose much harder than Hillary.

There was something seriously wrong in 2016, we lost, and did nothing to fix the system, and here we are again, this time in an even worse state and will probably get four more years of the worst rapist. Here we are likely having to choose between a rapist and a rapist.

The most frustrating thing about this is that the other big democrat players aren't saying shit about this. The former nominees could at least come out and condemn what he did, but nope, they'll stay silent. Even if someone comes out with video proof of it, I bet they would still stay silent. They're going to firmly stand behind Biden anyway. Even if something happens and Biden somehow steps down, and Bernie would NOT be the one replacing him, that would be perfectly fine with me as long as it's not another Biden. I know it won't though.

I don't think telling rape or sexual assault victims to "hold their nose" and vote for a rapist is right at all though. Full stop.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,298
New York City
Keeping Trump in office will also validate everything hes done. People talked about precedents set during impeachment, nothing will set us back further than we've ever been or more to the right than we've ever been then a second term of Trump. A ham sandwich with a sexual allegation against it is better than this destructive murderous nazi in office.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
Yep, even before these allegations came out I resigned to the fact that we're fucked come November.

I'll still vote for Biden (if and when he wins the nomination, even though I really hope that doesn't happen) in November, but I have no hope for this election at this point. I just feel defeated. I bet he doesn't even win the popular vote against Trump and will lose much harder than Hillary.
All evidence points to the contrary.
 

ChippyTurtle

Member
Oct 13, 2018
1,773
Yep, even before these allegations came out I resigned to the fact that we're fucked come November.

I'll still vote for Biden (if and when he wins the nomination, even though I really hope that doesn't happen) in November, but I have no hope for this election at this point. I just feel defeated. I bet he doesn't even win the popular vote against Trump and will lose much harder than Hillary.
At this rate, with the amount of takes I see about people thinking Biden will lose worse than Clinton, I'll need a stock answer to this stuff. The primaries had double digit increased turnout vs 2016 and 2018. Every poll shows Biden slamming Clinton in vs Trump. Sanders's results show his votes in 2016 were anti-Clinton. Nothing, absolutely nothing shows Biden is gonna lose worse than Clinton. Everything points to Clinton being the reason Trump lost and she lost by only 70K votes.
 

HylianSeven

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,700
At this rate, with the amount of takes I see about people thinking Biden will lose worse than Clinton, I'll need a stock answer to this stuff. The primaries had double digit increased turnout vs 2016 and 2018. Every poll shows Biden slamming Clinton in vs Trump. Sanders's results show his votes in 2016 were anti-Clinton. Nothing, absolutely nothing shows Biden is gonna lose worse than Clinton. Everything points to Clinton being the reason Trump lost and she lost by only 70K votes.
All evidence points to the contrary.
Everyone kept saying Hillary couldn't possibly lose in 2016. The polls all said she was going to win. She lost. Yes, it was by electoral college bullshit and she still won the popular vote, but it didn't matter, she still lost.

Most of the primaries in 2020 happened before these allegations came out. Maybe Biden won't lose harder than Clinton, but given that all the polls and research and everything said Hillary had this thing in the bag in 2016, I have a hard time believing it, and it's really depressing.
 

Eeyore

Member
Dec 13, 2019
2,137
Keeping Trump in office will also validate everything hes done. People talked about precedents set during impeachment, nothing will set us back further than we've ever been or more to the right than we've ever been then a second term of Trump. A ham sandwich with a sexual allegation against it is better than this destructive murderous nazi in office.
Biden (that ham sandwich) has more than just a single sexual allegation against him, he has multiple other allegations of inappropriate touching as well. I admire your sincere feelings but I truly don't think this is an isolated incident for him.

I'd also say that Ronald Reagan's administration(s) was/were more to the right than Donald Trump at least as far as modern Presidents go, not that I disagree with the danger of a second term of Trump. In fact, they are similar in ways, with Reagan's 'treatment' of the AIDS epidemic and the fact he ran on the exact same slogan as Trump did in 2016.

At this rate, with the amount of takes I see about people thinking Biden will lose worse than Clinton, I'll need a stock answer to this stuff. The primaries had double digit increased turnout vs 2016 and 2018. Every poll shows Biden slamming Clinton in vs Trump. Sanders's results show his votes in 2016 were anti-Clinton. Nothing, absolutely nothing shows Biden is gonna lose worse than Clinton. Everything points to Clinton being the reason Trump lost and she lost by only 70K votes.
I admire your confidence. I don't share it. The continued COVID-19 crisis is going to do more injury to his chances than the impeachment and Mueller investigation combined.

We have no idea what an election is going to be like with this epidemic in mind either.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,797

It doesn't matter, no one's going to vote for him anyway.
That's not what that poll implies at all, lol. It suggest that Trump's cultists are enthusiastic about him and that Biden doesn't inspire similar fervor among his supporters. Well, no shit. Trump appeals to a special kind of maniac.

Unless I scanned the article too fast, the poll says nothing about the actual number of voters in question here. What we know is that Trump's core base would stick with him if he shot a nun in the head and plugged the hole with his lil' mushroom live on Fox News. These people don't constitute a majority of voters.

Biden appeals to moderates and he checks all the right boxes for people who see nothing wrong with the status quo. Biden doesn’t have to command a deranged cult of personality to secure enough votes to win. He can achieve that as a bland alternative to Trump who doesn't scare people with talk of radical change.
 
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Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
Everyone kept saying Hillary couldn't possibly lose in 2016. The polls all said she was going to win. She lost. Yes, it was by electoral college bullshit and she still won the popular vote, but it didn't matter, she still lost.

Most of the primaries in 2020 happened before these allegations came out. Maybe Biden won't lose harder than Clinton, but given that all the polls and research and everything said Hillary had this thing in the bag in 2016, I have a hard time believing it, and it's really depressing.

Biden will win PA and probably Wisconsin and Michigan. Even Florida is in play. He's got the best shot at the presidency.
 

Eeyore

Member
Dec 13, 2019
2,137
Biden will win PA and probably Wisconsin and Michigan. Even Florida is in play. He's got the best shot at the presidency.
He's also been accused of sexual assault and has a horrible history on that subject with events such as Anita Hill.



It is incredibly telling about how poor our leaders are on the left that it's come to this.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,905
He's also been accused of sexual assault and has a horrible history on that subject with events such as Anita Hill.



It is incredibly telling about how poor our leaders are on the left that it's come to this.

I'm not arguing that, but yeah it's tough to find someone on the left that passes muster in these days.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
561
Just looked it up. Cosponsored with Orrin Hatch, lol... Interesting.

I was on the fence about even participating in this election to begin with (Biden? Word?), but now I'm fairly certain I'll be abstaining in November.

This whole process just...makes me ill.
Cool, now read up on what Kyra has experienced as a medical practitioner in this same page and explain to her why you won't vote. Good luck.

I'd also say that Ronald Reagan's administration(s) was/were more to the right than Donald Trump at least as far as modern Presidents go, not that I disagree with the danger of a second term of Trump. In fact, they are similar in ways, with Reagan's 'treatment' of the AIDS epidemic and the fact he ran on the exact same slogan as Trump did in 2016.
I call bullshit. Reagan, for one, was far more supportive of giving illegal immigrants a path to citizenship and even spoke about the topic.

Whereas Trump has his own Minister of Hate whose mission is to make the lives of any undocumented immigrants hell.