• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

Non-Binary |OT| 01101110 01101111 01101110

Kyuuji

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,948
Welcome Kyuuji! Glad to have you here. It is scary. Sometimes I get so anxious that people who care about me, who mean well, ask me if I wouldn't be happier if I turned back.

I know full well I wouldn't. I may not know 100% who I am, but I know I'm not cis. Even when it was "easy" to lie about that, I had lots of problems.

I'm pretty sure every NB/trans person I've run across has had to deal with some degree of imposter syndrome. I also have literally never run across somebody who actually was "faking it" as an NB person. I don't know why anybody would, to be honest.

It can be liberating to have a realization of who you are but you do want to make sure you take care of yourself and protect yourself. This is one of the major stresses I deal with for sure; it's a fine and dangerous line to walk. Hopefully by being who I am it will be easier for other people like me down the line.

For the record 30 isn't old - I'm way older than that. :)
I can't fathom what it must/would/will be like to address this all with my parents and closest friends, in all honesty. I've spent the evening coming out to my SO, showing her videos and explaining things to her. She has no real exposure to trans or gender issues so it was a valuable experience, and she's completely accepting and happy for me. So that's a massive relief, allowing me to explore this both here and at home is a wonderful thing.

I hope to have the courage to come out to my parents and my best friend eventually, but I have no idea how I'd do either at the moment and it's not a primary concern. Your point of taking care and protecting is a good one. Though I've been through a crucible earlier in life and survived I should consider the amount I expose myself at once, and should become more comfortable within these communities before running on instinct. Not that that contradicts my feelings much, though honestly they're a walking contradiction in themself. I want to share there newfound happiness and joy with the world but I have no idea to tell anyone IRL outside of my SO for the time being.

That's a nice line on imposter syndrome, the more I watch and the more I read the more it fades from Non-Binary for me, which might be due to a lack of exposure to NB prior to all this as I have less 'standards' to compare to. I appreciate the reassurance with the age, it certainly feels old for ‘all this’ but your post is reassuring and I have to thank you for having the courage to make the moves you have when you did. It really does help people like myself becoming aware to it all.

Thank you astro for making this thread, and everyone for sharing. I am a parent of a 15 year old that recently and quietly changed their pronouns on their IG profile from she/they to they/them and 'didn't want to make a big deal about it'. I love them with every bit of myself and this topic has been lovely to read and beyond that immensely helpful with my understanding level. I just wanted to say thank you, and I am so happy that all of you are here.
Incredible post, really, and feel free to ask questions. The concern you're feeling for making sure you're caring for their needs and respecting their wishes means more to them then you could imagine. I'm so happy for your child that they have someone so invested, compassionate and empathetic as yourself for a parent. Keep doing what you're doing, every parent doubts they're the best but you're not suggesting it, you're displaying it.

Kyuuji reading your posts and I'm so happy you were able to make these realizations about yourself, I relate to a bit to a lot of that
Thank you so much and I'm glad you can relate insofar as it helps me feel more comfortable in it all.
 
Last edited:

Kyuuji

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,948
Experiences of non-binary people aged 30-70, told directly.
I think the “not just a phase”styling undersells this one honestly, it’s adults talking frankly about their experiences.

 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
The English Wilderness
As a 38yo from rural England (aka the Shire), where even the mildest deviation from the dreaded Gender Norms is an open invite to abuse, I've always felt a little...out of sync with modern gender issues. As a consequence, I usually don't get too involved in these things, even though I should probably speak up - I mean, I was "challenging gender norms" before I even owned a NES XD

1. What are your pronouns?
Whatever people find comfortable. It's hard enough for most people to grasp the very concept of gender fluidity, so I try not to make it even harder for them.

2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself?

Idiosyncratic.

3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither?
For me, there is no gender, there is only myself. I loathe how people project gender and stereotypes onto others. Well, I loathe the whole projecting any identity onto others, but this is the one that comes up most often with me.

4. What's your favorite thing about being non-binary? What's your least favorite? What's something that has surprised you?
I can't get my head around the idea of having a "favourite thing about being non-binary"!

In terms of bugbears, though, aside from the aforementioned gender stereotyping mehnanigans, I do feel like it can be alienating for other people. Especially those over a certain age. I think it's just easier to keep someome at arm's length than confront and challenge your own deep-set presumptions.


5. Has any people, media, art, music, etc. inspired your non-binary self-actualization? If so please share & feel free to elaborate!
David Bowie, Sailor Moon

6. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say?
Be excellent to each other.
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,321
As someone new to NB and trans community and terminology... Taking some time to just search for nonbinary on twitter and using urban dictionary to look up terms has been really interesting.

That said, if you do use UD, you do have to be a little careful. Most of the proper definitions have been voted up and are thus the first results, but there are clearly some dubious ones.

One thing I unfortunately noticed was a lot of no true scotsman-ing ... makes me question whether I should spend too much time interacting on twitter. Twitter has a tendency to misrepresent such things as larger than they are.
 

Tezz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,009
California, U.S.
Hey y'all. My boy Big Joel posted his results from some online gender role test on Twitter a couple days ago. Out of curiosity I gave it a try and received these results:



Now the test claims to be based on some studies that I'm not particularly interested in checking, but given that the other tests on the site are very much of the silly-internet-quiz variety I doubt that this test is that scientific. That said, I don't think the results are inacurate.

Gender confuses me, but I feel uncomfortable entertaining the idea that I could be anything but cis when I read about the kind of experiences non-cis people have. For instance, I abhor my facial and body hair so I shave/wax, and I don't like the way I look with short hair so I let it grow out. I try to stay lean because I dislike the muscular male body type (even minor muscle mass I try to avoid). But I don't feel any particualr way about my genitalia or my voice. Reading descriptions of dysphoria, it seems like I'm nowhere near meeting the threshold.

In addition to what I've said so far, I hesitate to pick a gender from dropdown menus online and usually pick other/decline to answer if available, nor do I include the pronouns people address me with in online bios. I feel comfortable crossing my legs while sitting in public and wearing shorter-than-usual shorts. I carry typically feminine things on my person such as hair ties, chapstick, and a clamshell mirror-brush (which happens to be magenta colored).

I don't know what any of this means and I don't know what identifying as any gender means. It's all very confusing to me. Just thought I'd share though.
 

Kismet

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
1,432
This is very interesting. Most non-binary people look interesting. A bit futuristic. I don't know how to explain. Must be the colors and sometimes the cool hybride look.

My sex is male, and my gender as well. But I'm gay. Most people who see me think I'm straight. I never felt female.
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
"Undifferentiated" refers to the Bem Sex-role Inventory. Originally a difference between "undifferentiated" and "androgynous" was posited, but as further evidence has come in that's no longer a widely supported theory.

I took an open source variant on the BSRI online and I thought it was pretty funny the stuff they had in there. Apparently playing video games is a male trait according to this particular test :)

One of the things I read a couple months ago was some research suggesting that highly differentiated gender roles were mostly a First World Problem. While I don't believe that gender is entirely a social construct (which is to say that if someone tells me they consider themselves female, I'm not going to dispute that assessment), it is fascinating the varying and inconsistent ways in which gender is thought of among different societies, or the same societies in different times.
 

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
497
Early on, I decided to do some (bad) online tests to desperately seek validation.
Now obviously even a good test will fail to capture everything, but that the tests I tried seemed to have a very limited understanding of feminism, never mind gender identity, certainly didn't help.
That all being said though, I got the validation that I wanted. When a test decided I was cis, my initial gut reaction was "Oh f*** off". Which felt good to know that I felt that way. XP
(I then redid the test, changed one answer I was uncertain about, got a completely different result, and then concluded that the test was a load of rubbish)

EDIT: Did the test, casually feminine! Tbh this feels about right, I've always been described as "In touch with my feminine side".
 
Last edited:

sqwarlock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,212
Irvine, CA
My girlfriend and other friends have started using "they/them" for me, and it feels so damn good. There was a day last week where my GF and I were doing like a hide & seek type thing and she called out, "Where'd they go?!" That moment was when I knew it was okay to come out and say that I'm non-binary. I still present as male, but I';m going to work on looking more fem beyond just nail polish. Will probably get weird looks as a bald guy with a beard wearing skirts over leggings and nail polish, but fuck it.

EDIT:
My results for that quiz posted above, so yeah I guess that's that?
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,321
I';m going to work on looking more fem beyond just nail polish. Will probably get weird looks as a bald guy with a beard wearing skirts over leggings and nail polish, but fuck it.
I'm doing some very minor 'testing of the water' so to speak to see what kind of styles I like. If it makes you feel any better I went through some serious thinning a few years ago though I made it to the other side without any straight up bald spots. I think I'm going to get some thigh highs, but it's going to have to wait till it's cooler out (105F today alone).

As for my results on that test....



Wasn't expecting such a perfect split, but it's of course, not something to take too seriously either way.
 

OniLinkPlus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
593
Woah an enby thread! How'd we miss this?

1. What are your pronouns?

We use she/her/they/them!

2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself?

We typically describe ourselves as transfeminine non-binary.

3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither?

We're a rather interesting case, as we are multiple people sharing one body. So... we have many genders I guess? Each of us is one spot on the gender spectrum, but we each have different genders. Violet (me) is primarily femme non-binary. Quinn is androgynous/genderqueer. Quark is a binary trans woman, but she's also not human. Kitty is also binary trans woman, but yet another nonhuman.

4. What's your favorite thing about being non-binary? What's your least favorite? What's something that has surprised you?

Our favorite thing is that we feel basically unrestricted by gender roles and gender norms. We can dress how we want, when we want, and it fits us, and doesn't lock us in to any particular social role. Granted, gender roles are a thing to be destroyed in general, but the fact that we're isolated from it is nice.

5. Has any people, media, art, music, etc. inspired your non-binary self-actualization? If so please share & feel free to elaborate!

That's... something we'd have to think on tbh!

6. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say?

We were wondering for a long time if a thread like this would get made! It's so good to see it's finally here!
 

accx

Member
Oct 28, 2017
263
Got 'casually masculine' which wouldn't be the first thing i'd cling on.
 
Last edited:

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,321
Trying to branch out from beyond this forum and the discord to other trans/non-binary communities is making me remember why it was hard to come out at all. For example...


Gets immediately followed by...


As the first twitter thread implies, this seems to be a big sticking point to some in the gay and lesbian community.

Twitter seems to be a bad place in general to dig deeper into anything gender related since it seems like for every LGBTQ+ thread about unity, you have others that are very staunchly and starkly defining on who is qualified to be what.


(edit) On a different note, Mastercard is enrolling a program that allow individuals to put their real names on their cards without having to get a legal name change.


Today, Mastercard is making a commitment to address this challenge by introducing the True Name™ card. We are working with partners to create a product, as well as a sensitive and private process free of personal questions, that will allow for true names, not deadnames, to appear on cards without the requirement of a legal name change. This will ease a major pain point for the transgender and non-binary community.
 
Last edited:

Kraid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
Hey, I'm Kraid. I'm trying to figure shit out. I figure I'll post/follow here since I really don't know what resources there are around in my (small, very conservative) community, and I want to have things more, I dunno, solidified? before I really pursue that.

1. What are your pronouns? At this point, honestly, I'm still okay with he/him. And I maybe always will be?
2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself? The best I feel like I can confidently say is "not cis!"
3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither? For me, coming to terms with all this has been confusing more than anything? I'm in the back half of my 30s, and have really only thought of this stuff for a couple of years. I genuinely feel like I'm somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum?
4. What's your favorite thing about being non-binary? What's your least favorite? What's something that has surprised you? My least favorite thing is really trying to like, pin down some sort of identity? I deal with all sorts of self-esteem issues, etc. so it's pretty easy to feel like an imposter. Mostly I've been surprised at how much I've enjoyed pushing outside of the constraints of gender norms.
5. Has any people, media, art, music, etc. inspired your non-binary self-actualization? If so please share & feel free to elaborate! I don't have a fun thing to add here, but there is something that's pushed this to the forefront of my brain. At my workplace, they have this awful bathroom door art that has a bunch of "synonyms" for men/women. And it's such cis-supremacist garbage. There's also a gender-neutral bathroom, which is the only one I ever use. But I still have to walk by those doors all the time, and an, every time I do it reaffirms that I am definitely not a cis-man.

So yeah... I really don't know what else to say because like, I don't really know much beyond that. I just wanted to say hi and that I'm thankful there's a community like this here because I really don't have a good place to go online and I'm much too awkward to go do things face to face for now.
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
Hey Kraid! Welcome. Glad that you at least have a gender-neutral bathroom where you're at - that's something, right? Coming to terms with gender in one's 30s or later is rough, I agree. Also yeah being non-cis with imposter syndrome, sometimes I'm like "Yeah this is the exact worst thing for someone with imposter syndrome to do", but also it's weirdly helped me cope with imposter syndrome? Dealing with people I don't even fucking care about who I will never be good enough for helps me externalize some of the self-blame I grew up with. It's like, finally somebody else hates me as much as I used to hate myself, and they're a complete asshole. Boy, I don't want to be that much of an asshole, so I guess I shouldn't hate myself!
 

AliceAmber

Moderator
May 2, 2018
855
Tampa, Fl
Oh my goodness I had no idea this thread was even here! I've only recently figured out that I'm genderfluid. I'm in my 30s too so its been hmmm interesting. I love the questions so I'm going to be contemplating them for a bit and posting them here.

Very excited to be a part of this thread!
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,246
Austria
I gotta say, that online test seems.. Idk.
Fishy is the nicest word I have.
I'm a binary guy, and I wouldn't assume anyone would consider me feminine.
The test gives me 31% masc and 61% fem.
And the questions... Liking kids is somehow indicative of gender? Hard to wrap my head around it all.

I gotta read into the materials it's based on, I guess. I can't fathom how these values were categorized.
But like others mentioned before, it's online tests. Eh.
 

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
497
I gotta say, that online test seems.. Idk.
Fishy is the nicest word I have.
I'm a binary guy, and I wouldn't assume anyone would consider me feminine.
The test gives me 31% masc and 61% fem.
And the questions... Liking kids is somehow indicative of gender? Hard to wrap my head around it all.

I gotta read into the materials it's based on, I guess. I can't fathom how these values were categorized.
But like others mentioned before, it's online tests. Eh.
I haven't looked into the materials either, but imo: rejecting the gender binary is a big part of being non-binary, but equally I think if you get restricted by an online test saying "you must be this masculine/feminine to count", that's missing the point to a certain extent.
It's interesting to look at and can help your thinking regarding your gender identity, but even for cis men or cis women, is masculinity/femininity necessarily a good thing? Should we measure gender identity by these arbitrary standards at all? The answer to these questions will differ from person to person. Ultimately, if you're certain you're a dude after asking questions about yourself, you're a dude. And no online test can say otherwise.
 

dadjumper

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,575
Japan
Good to see this thread pop up! I'm interested in exploring the possibility of being nb. Any helpful text-based (eg not video) resources I can look at at work?
 

OniLinkPlus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
593
I started HRT through Planned Parenthood with informed consent. They had me on hormones almost immediately.
 

Tezz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,009
California, U.S.
I've got a question. Does anyone have any experience with, or resources for, dealing with five o'clock shadow? No matter how close a shave I get, my facial hair remains pronounced. Save for laser hair removal, what options are available for dealing with it? I've thought of applying makeup but I have no idea where to start, and I don't want it to be obvious that I'm wearing makeup either.
 

dadjumper

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,575
Japan
I've got a question. Does anyone have any experience with, or resources for, dealing with five o'clock shadow? No matter how close a shave I get, my facial hair remains pronounced. Save for laser hair removal, what options are available for dealing with it? I've thought of applying makeup but I have no idea where to start, and I don't want it to be obvious that I'm wearing makeup either.
+1 for this. I've been thinking about laser removal for a while
 

Kyuuji

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,948
Just noticed I now have the non-binary emoji:

💆‍♂️💆💆‍♀️

🤦‍♂️🤦🤦‍♀️

🤷‍♂️🤷🤷‍♀️

Have to search for them as Google Keyboard doesn't seem to yet show them in the listing or under the 'tap & hold' options. Which is weird as they're there when you search, but then again in the keyboard itself the non-binary is currently displayed as a repeated second female option.

No update for the keyboard is out it seems but still nice to have them in some capacity atm.
 

Tezz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,009
California, U.S.
I tried to apply nail polish. I have no idea what I'm doing. It looks really uneven. I don't take it there are supposed to be so many bubbles? If you click the image you can zoom in to see what I'm talking about. Sorry about my nasty cuticles. The messy parts are mostly nail polish that I painted "outside the lines" on though.

I did this in part because I have a habit of biting my nails too short, so I'm out of luck whenever I need to use them. But I also put it on because I wanted to, I guess.

 

Papa Satanás

Member
Oct 25, 2017
573
no
I tried to apply nail polish. I have no idea what I'm doing. It looks really uneven. I don't take it there are supposed to be so many bubbles? If you click the image you can zoom in to see what I'm talking about. Sorry about my nasty cuticles. The messy parts are mostly nail polish that I painted "outside the lines" on though.

I did this in part because I have a habit of biting my nails too short, so I'm out of luck whenever I need to use them. But I also put it on because I wanted to, I guess.

It looks okay! Practice with light colours and transparents, then move up to bolder colours as you get the hang of it. Use a q-tip dipped in polish remover to clean up around the nails when it's dry.

I've been wearing polish since I was a kid, and it's still annoying sometimes. You'll get the hang of it and get your bangin nails soon enough :)
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
The English Wilderness
I've got a question. Does anyone have any experience with, or resources for, dealing with five o'clock shadow? No matter how close a shave I get, my facial hair remains pronounced. Save for laser hair removal, what options are available for dealing with it? I've thought of applying makeup but I have no idea where to start, and I don't want it to be obvious that I'm wearing makeup either.
Find the right foundation for your skin type/tone. It doesn't take long to learn how to apply it, and it's inconspicuous enough that a lot of men don't even notice when women are wearing it...
I tried to apply nail polish. I have no idea what I'm doing. It looks really uneven. I don't take it there are supposed to be so many bubbles? If you click the image you can zoom in to see what I'm talking about. Sorry about my nasty cuticles. The messy parts are mostly nail polish that I painted "outside the lines" on though.

I did this in part because I have a habit of biting my nails too short, so I'm out of luck whenever I need to use them. But I also put it on because I wanted to, I guess.

If you want to practise, get some nail care polish - it's translucent, so you won't have to worry about mistakes, and it'll help strengthen your nails for when you're ready to move on to colours.
 

7threst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
Netherlands
Hello. Just wanted to say I got notified on this thread by the SonicFox thread on gaming side. I might post some (ignorant) questions in the near future, but not sure yet. I do know that the more I learn about gender, non-binary, the fluidity of it all and the way people feel, the more questions I have :)
 

AliceAmber

Moderator
May 2, 2018
855
Tampa, Fl
I totally forgot to write my introduction post! Oops.

1. What are your pronouns?
They/Their/She/Her/He/Him

2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself?
Genderfluid is what I'm comfortable with right now.

3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither?
Fluctuating genders for sure.

4. What's your favorite thing about being non-binary? What's your least favorite? What's something that has surprised you?
It made me comfortable to not hold myself to the standards of beauty according to others. Like I don't feel the need anymore to shave my legs or arm pits regularly.

Least favorite is that I'm mostly in the closet. Not even all of my friends know yet. Hopefully they will soon enough.

5. Has any people, media, art, music, etc. inspired your non-binary self-actualization? If so please share & feel free to elaborate!
The Greek God Dionysus! I won't get too far into the pagan side of things, but as a Greek mythological figure they been very influential.

6. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say?
I just want to share this comic I'm obsessed with Fremuard's art.

 

Delphine

Resting Witch Face
Moderator
Mar 30, 2018
1,680
France



This test is fun, and seems to corroborate the fact that I entertained, a few years ago, the idea that I might be demigirl. I don't really care about it much though, and will still prefer using she/her as preferred pronouns, but I always felt like I had an important masculine part in my personality, and I cherish that a lot. I still mostly identify with women most and foremost, and probably always will. But it's nice to see nuances in this as well.
 

Towaherschel

Member
Sep 2, 2019
28
Canada
Hi! I'm Towaherschel (You can call me Towa if that's easier :P). I've identified as non-binary for a decade now. I'm new to Resetera and I couldn't help but comment in this thread!!

Now, to answer the questions from the first post:

1. What are your pronouns?
No particular preference, people usually refer to me as they/them, though, so I just default to that!

2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself?
I don't identify with any specific gender, my mood usually dictates how I'll act/present on a specific day. I usually present more feminine than masculine, though.

3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither?
To me it's that I do not identify as male or female specifically. So it can be any of those things listed above; it depends on the person's experiences I guess.

4. What's your favorite thing about being non-binary? What's your least favorite? What's something that has surprised you?
My favorite thing is that I can be anything I want whenever and feel comfortable with it. The thought of being non-binary feels natural to me, I couldn't be anything else but that. :)

As for my least favorite, it's making people understand what being non-binary is. I've met plenty of stubborn people in my life who won't change their minds and think non-binary is just some made up term to make me "unique".


5. Has any people, media, art, music, etc. inspired your non-binary self-actualization? If so please share & feel free to elaborate!
Mainly one of my close friends, who is non-binary themselves and helped me come out and be myself a decade ago.

6. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say?
Nice to meet you all :)
 

Kyuuji

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,948
I’m so thankful for you all lol. Those posts have been too frequent of late. Mixed with the “it’s comedy” nonsense and it’s starting to drag.

Shamelessly posting a tweet I made earlier because I like yelling into the ether of the internet
There you go again, making this 1,400 year old language so needlessly complicated!
 

napkins

Member
Nov 18, 2017
194
I wonder if I'll ever just get to be me. It's difficult trying to figure myself out already. People are so quick to throw question after question about how and why and I don't have all the answers and it makes me feel like I'm fooling myself. I'm just afraid all the time.
 

Doop

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
164
I have a real hard time staying cool in those non-binary threads. It just feels like nobody actually cares, they just want to be content in their ignorance out of spite. Recent threads here have really gotten me down. At least the moderation is on our side.
 

Kyuuji

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,948
I wonder if I'll ever just get to be me. It's difficult trying to figure myself out already. People are so quick to throw question after question about how and why and I don't have all the answers and it makes me feel like I'm fooling myself. I'm just afraid all the time.
It’s a lot to go over, definitely feel you on the expectation to be able to field a hundred questions. Take your time to process it and see how you feel naturally when you’re not being pressured (by others or yourself) into rushing that. Also, don’t judge yourself if your perception or where you land shifts in that time. It’s natural and doesn’t make anything less valid.