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Non-Binary |OT| 01101110 01101111 01101110

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355

N O N - B I N A R Y E R A
O T 1 | 01101110 01101111 01101110




W E L C O M E A L L

This thread will focus on the non-binary peoples of Era, and act as a base for us to come together and discuss, share, shoot the shit... and for anyone else who would like to engage for whatever reason. If you have any questions at all you'd like to ask non-binary folk, this is the thread for it! Our one request is that people remain respectful, within Era's general rules!

What is meant by non-binary?
Put simply, non-binary people don't fit into the binary choice of “Male or Female”. A non-binary person could be someone who has never identified enough with the default gender descriptions to fit in neatly to either category, it could be someone who feels as if they flit between the two, or it could even be a person who simply denies the idea that gender can be so easily and neatly separated into two categories.

For many people, their gender identity is never in question and acceptance of the binary gender norm is not even a consideration, for non-binary folk this specific gender norm isn't accurate.


This is no fad!
Non-binary peoples have existed forever. This isn't some fad or craze dreamt up to make ourselves feel special. As above, this is simply language catching up with the notion that people exist whose traits and personalities cannot be so neatly categorized.


There is no confusion, specificity is the opposite!
To reiterate: the point is we're using the term to update language to describe those of us who exist on the scale and not at either end. It's the precise opposite of confusion, it's a call for acknowledgment and acceptance of actual people who really do exist.




And even non-binary is only one type of gender identity, there are many more.








N O N - B I N A R Y M E D I A


P E T E R C O F F I N
Non-Binary Content Creator -
Media Representation



T H O U G H T S L I M E
Non-Binary Content Creator -
Am I valid?



Non binary, how do you know you're real?



Non binary genders are real!





I N T R O D U C E Y O U R S E L F

If you'd like to introduce yourself to the thread and NB community, feel free to use these questions to format your hello!
Of course, this is not a requirement, just a little guidance if you would like some.


1. What are your pronouns?

2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself?

3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither?

4. What's your favorite thing about being non-binary? What's your least favorite? What's something that has surprised you?

5. Has any people, media, art, music, etc. inspired your non-binary self-actualization? If so please share & feel free to elaborate!

6. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say?






T H A N K S T O

Thank you to everyone on the Non-Binary Discord for their help!

kittens for writing the introduction template and feedback, How About No for feedback and picking out some excellent videos, and everyone else who helped!

Please PM me if you'd like a link to the discord.

Please let me know if you have anything you would like to add to the OT!
 
Last edited:

kittens

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,656
yooo astro I love how you stylized the OT! looks crisp

So, how's non-binary life going for everyone?

I've been IDing as non-binary explicitly since September 2017, but even before then gender never quite fit me and in retrospect I realize I had been contorting myself since childhood so I could fit into the binary. The first year of identifying as non-binary was pretty messy for me, I had so much I was trying to sort through and understand, and it brought up a lot of unexpected / unrecognized trauma that I had to also work through. But I'm feeling more and more confident and integrated in being agender, and with a lot of the early difficulty behind me I'm finding I have more energy to devote to my wellbeing, self-actualization, & glow up -- which is really fucking nice to be able to say!

Speaking of glow up, I'm getting my ears pierced next week! I'm really excited, I've been calling it my mini confirmation surgery lol. I need to track down some more warm weather clothes too, summer is sneaking up. I'm not sure what to go for though... Most men's shorts are ugly to me, and most women's shorts don't fit. I need to learn how to make my own clothes honestly lol
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
Well, I apparently threadkilled the trans OT, hopefully I don't kill this one too.

I'm they/them. I have a lot of trouble with the language sometimes, I'm trying to understand where I fit in, in the context of how others are looking at things. For instance I've read "trans" as an umbrella term describing anybody who isn't cis, and in that sense I do identify as "trans". I do also identify as non-binary though, because I don't really want any sort of surgery. I definitely think one can be a trans woman without having surgery, and I don't know, maybe I am, but I'm not in a place where I can commit to that right now.

The constant uncertainty is hard. I mean, it's good. I've suffered a lot with severe mental illness, depression in particular, and a lot of that has manifested itself in my viewing everything in very black and white, binary terms. Acclimating myself to ambiguity has been an extremely helpful process to me.

The pressure is hard too. People have this natural tendency to want to see me as either a man or a woman. Unless a person is my physician or an intimate partner of mine I really don't see why it should matter. I definitely want to be able to present more femme but this constant pressure to "pass" or "blend" isn't something I like. I'm queer because I want to be able to be myself and be accepted for that, not so I can experience the joy of even more stringent arbitrary societal expectations.

Lots of people have inspired me in being non-binary. I read a lot of history and nearly every day I run across someone who inspires me. Particularly, in former times, women, who suffered under an utterly stifling understanding of gender. The shit that people like Margaret Fuller and Katherine Mansfield had to go through, and their persistence in the face of that opprobrium, is really inspirational to me.
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355
yooo astro I love how you stylized the OT! looks crisp

So, how's non-binary life going for everyone?

I've been IDing as non-binary explicitly since September 2017, but even before then gender never quite fit me and in retrospect I realize I had been contorting myself since childhood so I could fit into the binary. The first year of identifying as non-binary was pretty messy for me, I had so much I was trying to sort through and understand, and it brought up a lot of unexpected / unrecognized trauma that I had to also work through. But I'm feeling more and more confident and integrated in being agender, and with a lot of the early difficulty behind me I'm finding I have more energy to devote to my wellbeing, self-actualization, & glow up -- which is really fucking nice to be able to say!

Speaking of glow up, I'm getting my ears pierced next week! I'm really excited, I've been calling it my mini confirmation surgery lol. I need to track down some more warm weather clothes too, summer is sneaking up. I'm not sure what to go for though... Most men's shorts are ugly to me, and most women's shorts don't fit. I need to learn how to make my own clothes honestly lol
Thanks my friend, web development/design practise paying off. :p

The confidence you're experiencing sounds really affirming, I'm very happy it's happening for you.

I like 3/4 length skinny fit trousers personally, and skinny fit shorts that end just above the knees. most of my clothes have a slight feminine spin, they definitely exist somewhere between male and female. Like, I enjoy really long t-shirts and leggings combo for summer, and I've recently gained the confidence to actually wear them. I'm very slim and quite athletic in build, so it's easy for me to pull off (lucky genes in that regard at least), I'm really happy with that part!

I've not officially come out to all my friends yet, I've updated my social media about sections to show this but I've not had conversations with people directly aside from my GF and one other person. It's not that I'm afraid, or that I really care about what these people think ultimately, I'm just kind of exhausted at the constant need to educate people.

My sister is lesbian, but she's pretty closed minded. She says bisexual people aren't real for example, that they just need to make up their minds about what they really want. I think this might stem from negative experiences in the past (relationship wise), but I know for certain she'd mock me for this or just outright disagree with the possibility NB even exists.

My family are all quite open minded usually, but they do sometimes drop little comments about social progress that make me confront them and they see me as a troublemaker in that regard as I always call them out for it (not in a hostile way, but they seem to get tired of being called out consistently).

Little things like my mother rolling her eyes a little at the idea that Black Panther meant something to black folk (when pressed she said it was fuss over nothing, she got it when we spoke about it, I just think they're not confronted with this stuff often so they don't even think about it), and my sister's aforementioned opinions on bi-sexuality.

I've not approached the non-binary, trans, gender fluid conversation with them at all, and I know it'll have some resistance.

I'm also not bothering correcting people any more on the use of pronouns, that's just too fucking exhausting. I've done it a few times on Era and in certain discords, always politely unless the person is being overtly hostile, and 9/10 I'm met with exasperated compliance, like they'll do it but they will definitely let me know how much they're rolling their eyes.

I've kind of given up on that, maybe if I were a bit younger with more energy to put into it I'd have more of a fighting spirit. I'll still fight to the death for others, though.
 

saenima

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,312
Hey all. OP looks slick. Thanks for this thread, i'll contribute a little more later.
 

CharGP02A

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,311
HI! I'm trans but I'm a binary girl. Just wanted to come in here and give my support to y'all <3 <3 <3 <3
 

Poppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,418
corvallis, OR
gender and sexuality are old and i’m a hip young 30 year old

no thats just humor not denying anyone anything. if anything its just showing how lucky i am to be able to not give a shit anymore
 
Yesss great work Astro and Kittens :D

1. What are your pronouns? Still working it out, good with anything atm

2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself?
Still working it out. I used to think I was andro-side of androgynous but gender-nonconforming, but thinking some things thru on how I perceive myself that are DEFINITELY not cis thoughts haha

3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither?
Hmm. For now I'll say many/fluctuating


Speaking of glow up, I'm getting my ears pierced next week! I'm really excited, I've been calling it my mini confirmation surgery lol. I need to track down some more warm weather clothes too, summer is sneaking up. I'm not sure what to go for though... Most men's shorts are ugly to me, and most women's shorts don't fit. I need to learn how to make my own clothes honestly lol
oh nice! I'm gonna get my ears pierced...at some point...but i've never had to think about what kind of earrings i'd ever wear aaa
 

napkins

Member
Nov 18, 2017
194
I'll have to follow this. I just recently came out as non-binary and I'm not really fully out with everyone and it's really tough sometimes to feel like someone is lying. Either them or me.
 

Clov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,341
Thanks for making the OT! You did such a great job! To introduce myself:

1) My pronouns are they/them
2) The best way I'd describe myself would be nonbinary femme
3) I guess to me, being nonbinary is about being sort of a mix of both... though I definitely lean more feminine, personally
4) My favorite thing... mostly that I just get to feel like myself! My least favorite is having to deal with judgmental people occasionally... but I have been surprised with how accepting most of the people in my life have been!
5) A character from an anime actually helped nudge me towards finally accepting myself and coming out; Rui Ninomiya from Gachaman Crowds! Often they present femininely (especially in public), other times more neutrally... the way that they're presented in the show makes it very easy to read them as being nonbinary! They're a really important character to me.
6) You are all valid and beautiful! <3
 

kittens

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,656
So I'm 40 minutes into this panel discussion on queerness and fashion, and I really can't believe how complex and wide ranging the conversation is.... It's affirming as fuck first off, but it's also giving me a lot of new thoughts to chew on. Thought I'd share!


I'm they/them. I have a lot of trouble with the language sometimes, I'm trying to understand where I fit in, in the context of how others are looking at things. For instance I've read "trans" as an umbrella term describing anybody who isn't cis, and in that sense I do identify as "trans". I do also identify as non-binary though, because I don't really want any sort of surgery. I definitely think one can be a trans woman without having surgery, and I don't know, maybe I am, but I'm not in a place where I can commit to that right now.
I identified as non-binary and agender for probably nine months before I started identifying as trans, and I had a lot of complicated feelings about it. The more I explored being non-binary, the more I naturally explored different feminine (I'm AMAB) behaviors, traits, concepts, expressions, etc. I found that I began accessing normative feminine traits like emotionality, nurturance, and relationship making in new ways, and as I integrated these traits more it really started to feel like I was going through a "from one thing to another thing" type of transition, and it definitely felt very feminine for me. So, that's when I started identifying as trans... But I actually once again feel iffy about it, lol. I identify as agender, and because I feel like I have no gender it's hard for me to feel like I went "from one thing to another thing" like I said before. I know that's not necessarily important to someone IDing as trans, but somehow it is for me. I guess it's because I don't really believe in gender anymore, and for me this whole experience has felt like I'm shedding unnecessary boundaries and becoming more deeply integrated. When I discuss this stuff with friends I actually prefer to use the word integration as an alternate concept to transition, because it really does feel more accurate for me.

Also: I appreciate the inspirations you mentioned, I'm curious to look them up and learn more!

I've not officially come out to all my friends yet, I've updated my social media about sections to show this but I've not had conversations with people directly aside from my GF and one other person. It's not that I'm afraid, or that I really care about what these people think ultimately, I'm just kind of exhausted at the constant need to educate people.

My sister is lesbian, but she's pretty closed minded. She says bisexual people aren't real for example, that they just need to make up their minds about what they really want. I think this might stem from negative experiences in the past (relationship wise), but I know for certain she'd mock me for this or just outright disagree with the possibility NB even exists.
The very first way I expressed being non-binary in any public way was adding they/them to my instagram bio. I wonder how many of my friends even ever saw it.

And that's rough about your sister. I hope you can find a way to talk to her (or be okay with not). I've never faced those kinds of attitudes from lesbians before, but I kinda know it's only a matter of time... I'm not looking forward to it.

HI! I'm trans but I'm a binary girl. Just wanted to come in here and give my support to y'all <3 <3 <3 <3
hiiii thanks for popping in, feel free to comment & post more if you want!

oh nice! I'm gonna get my ears pierced...at some point...but i've never had to think about what kind of earrings i'd ever wear aaa
I've just gradually started to pay more attention to earrings while I'm out, noticing what other people are wearing and checking out earrings more when I'm at stores. I've started taking screenshots when I see people on IG wearing good earrings too, that's been really helpful for me.

I'll have to follow this. I just recently came out as non-binary and I'm not really fully out with everyone and it's really tough sometimes to feel like someone is lying. Either them or me.
I think that self-doubt is a big part of the experience for a lot of us, especially early on. I still struggle with it sometimes, but it's gotten better. The hardest for me is feeling not queer enough when I'm around people who I perceive to somehow be more visibily queer than me... Though rationally I know that there's no such thing as "looking queer". I just hate being read as a man, and I'm insecure about it. But that's getting easier too... Unless I meet a Very Queer Person who I also think I might have a crush on, then I get all insecure again lol

5) A character from an anime actually helped nudge me towards finally accepting myself and coming out; Rui Ninomiya from Gachaman Crowds! Often they present femininely (especially in public), other times more neutrally... the way that they're presented in the show makes it very easy to read them as being nonbinary! They're a really important character to me.
ooooh dope that's so cool!
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355
I'll add that to my playlist kittens thanks for the share.

And I'm done trying to make my sister understand, we're not very close anyway. The people who I really care about know and accept and support, that's all I need!
 

Twstr709

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,668
Thanks for all this information, OP. I learned a lot from that, speaking as a cis dude.
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
I identified as non-binary and agender for probably nine months before I started identifying as trans, and I had a lot of complicated feelings about it. The more I explored being non-binary, the more I naturally explored different feminine (I'm AMAB) behaviors, traits, concepts, expressions, etc. I found that I began accessing normative feminine traits like emotionality, nurturance, and relationship making in new ways, and as I integrated these traits more it really started to feel like I was going through a "from one thing to another thing" type of transition, and it definitely felt very feminine for me. So, that's when I started identifying as trans... But I actually once again feel iffy about it, lol. I identify as agender, and because I feel like I have no gender it's hard for me to feel like I went "from one thing to another thing" like I said before. I know that's not necessarily important to someone IDing as trans, but somehow it is for me. I guess it's because I don't really believe in gender anymore, and for me this whole experience has felt like I'm shedding unnecessary boundaries and becoming more deeply integrated. When I discuss this stuff with friends I actually prefer to use the word integration as an alternate concept to transition, because it really does feel more accurate for me.
That's really interesting, my new therapist does "integration therapy". This week he brought up something he called "identity moratorium", which is, if I'm understanding it correctly, basically where I allow myself to try different things without necessarily drawing any larger conclusions from them.

Language is definitely a big thing for me. I try to be precise about my use of language, but since language, like gender, is to a certain extent a social construct there's a lot of negotiation that goes on there, and not just with the pronouns. Part of that "moratorium" is using different words to describe myself, trying them on to see which one fits me best. I've also found something like "non-binary" can be seen as a less threatening form of being trans, and I don't feel guilty about using that to my advantage. For some reason it seems like it's mostly clothes and makeup that set some cis people's teeth on edge; aside from that I find that I can queer it up as much as I like and the most anybody will do is talk behind my back.
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355
Thanks to everyone dropping in with their support, it's really nice to know people like yourselves are out there! :)

-

The main thing I'm dealing with right now is the fact I don't really fit into social groups outside of my gender fluid core group.

Not quite male enough to be one of the boys, and not quite female enough to be one of the girls. The way I present is a mix, but I guess it's more male with a touch of feminine clothing. I have a beard, long hair, and I'm quite slim, but I have very masculine facial features and body type overall. My voice sounds very male too, so when I meet gender fluid people I've found I'm immediately boxed as male.

A friend of my girlfriend for example, is quite anti-cis male atm due to a lot of trauma from her youth, and she's going into her gender identity as a gender queer person and dealing with the usual toxic elements on and offline. We had a meal together a few months ago and she kept dropping things into conversation... like I would talk about an artist I like who happens to have strong feminist leaning and she would say something like "oh, you like her? Okay, you've scored some points", like I was being examined as a cis guy that MIGHT be some kind of ally. I had only informed my girlfriend at the time of my identity and had asked her to not say anything for the time being, so I didn't correct this when it happened. It was just difficult to deal with someone so invested in championing gender identity positivity making so many assumptions.

Yeh, I'm dropping a lot on the first page so sorry if I'm taking up space, this is all quite new for me and I'm trying to make sense and find the courage to stand up for myself in many ways.
 

GK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,096
Great OT! I had a surface understanding on people who identified as non-binary, so this thread is very informational.

I have a question, the question in the OP that says "What are your pronouns?", would the pronouns they/them be the default pronouns to use until you learn which pronouns the person prefers?
 

phonicjoy

Member
Jun 19, 2018
2,253
OP, could I bother you to add Some resources for binary folk to peruse? I always assumed gender was a construct and therefore not really valid, but I want to learn. My experience with non-binary people is limited, and I would like Some info from people who live this experience.
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355
OP, could I bother you to add Some resources for binary folk to peruse? I always assumed gender was a construct and therefore not really valid, but I want to learn. My experience with non-binary people is limited, and I would like Some info from people who live this experience.
Aside from the videos on offer? We'll be adding stuff to the OP as people present them, I'm kind of relying on others a little here as I'm only just truly beginning to explore this all myself. We made the thread with some other members in similar positions because it it wasn't here already, and we wanted to just get the OP asap so we had a base to touch down.

For now I would highly recommend watching the videos in the OP and following recommended videos and things, and keep an eye on the thread as it will be added to as we go.

Also, check out ContraPoints who is a wonderful voice on gender identity, trans identity, and just being a good human.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,868
Germany
Just wanted to jump in and tell all of you that the world would be less bright without you all in it
 

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,052
Still trying to come with terms if I´m non binary or not. I never felt like the traditional male since childhood, but I never thought a lot about it. THen I started following some non binary and trans folk in twitter and started to question a lot of stuff about myself, that I still have to figure it out.
 

Clov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,341
Great OT! I had a surface understanding on people who identified as non-binary, so this thread is very informational.

I have a question, the question in the OP that says "What are your pronouns?", would the pronouns they/them be the default pronouns to use until you learn which pronouns the person prefers?
I would say so, personally. It's an easy gender neutral way of addressing someone until you learn what pronouns they use. Personally I think it's a lot better than picking a binary gendered pronoun based on assumptions, since that could potentially make the other person uncomfortable.
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355
Great OT! I had a surface understanding on people who identified as non-binary, so this thread is very informational.

I have a question, the question in the OP that says "What are your pronouns?", would the pronouns they/them be the default pronouns to use until you learn which pronouns the person prefers?
This is what I do, it's really easy to learn to shift to and if in your personal encounters it only makes one person's day a little better I say it's worth it.

If needing a pronoun on Era I'll check the profile to see if the person has their identity marked, but even then I will try to avoid the binary choice unless I see the person use it themselves. It's not always a given and it's such a tiny adjustment to make on the speakers part.
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
OP, could I bother you to add Some resources for binary folk to peruse? I always assumed gender was a construct and therefore not really valid, but I want to learn. My experience with non-binary people is limited, and I would like Some info from people who live this experience.
While I would definitely agree that gender is at least in part a social construct, I wouldn't necessarily agree that that makes it not valid. The idea that gender is all nurture and no nature was advanced by John Money in the 1970s, but when he tried to put that theory into practice by performing reassignment surgery on a boy named David Reimer, it did not work out like that in practice. I accept the gender identifications of both cis and trans men and women as valid, I just am not sure they are the be-all and end-all of gender :)
 

4cute

Member
Oct 25, 2017
767
1. What are your pronouns?

- Any tbh. I dont mind he/she/they/etc


2. How do you like to describe your gender / identity? Are there any terms, identities, or affinities you like to evoke in describing yourself?

- I would say I don't really care about gender, and I think androgony is really cool

3. In your experience, does being non-binary feel like having no gender, many genders, fluctuating genders, or both / neither?

- It feels like being neither female nor male, because I don't like the idea of fitting what a woman or what a man "should" be

4. What's your favorite thing about being non-binary? What's your least favorite? What's something that has surprised you?

- Favorite thing would be not having to go above and beyond to live up to some ideal, because im naturally lazy lol

5. Has any people, media, art, music, etc. inspired your non-binary self-actualization? If so please share & feel free to elaborate!

- Im sure there are but nothing comes to mind atm. I will say that I really like masculine characters wearing really feminine clothing (not as a joke)

6. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say?

Thank god for t-shirts and jeans, the perfect gender-neutral outfit!
 

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
499
Non-binary rights!
-I use he/him or they/them pronouns. I don't mind either because tbh they both feel a little weird at different times.
-I describe myself to friends as "A dude...ish". I don't feel it's inaccurate per say to call me a dude in some ways, but I also don't think it paints the entire picture. (My SO has asked if maybe I'm a little gender fluid in that regard, excellent question! I dunno. I feel different about my gender on different days, so it would make sense to some extent)
-If I had to describe how it feels, it's more like that there's a bit of a disconnect with what I'm "supposed" to be compared to what I actually am. Again it's weird and it changes a little sometimes.
-My favourite thing about being NB is just knowing tbh. It answers some questions about me, I only really realised this year.
-I have a lot of respect for cartoon creator Rebecca Sugar! The cartoon they've made (Steven Universe) is very good, but also when I listened to them describe their experiences as a non-binary woman on a podcast (I forget which one), something kind of clicked in my brain as "oh it me but the opposite".
-I dyed my hair pink a few months ago and honestly it feels great, never going back lol.
 

GK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,096
I would say so, personally. It's an easy gender neutral way of addressing someone until you learn what pronouns they use. Personally I think it's a lot better than picking a binary gendered pronoun based on assumptions, since that could potentially make the other person uncomfortable.
This is what I do, it's really easy to learn to shift to and if in your personal encounters it only makes one person's day a little better I say it's worth it.

If needing a pronoun on Era I'll check the profile to see if the person has their identity marked, but even then I will try to avoid the binary choice unless I see the person use it themselves. It's not always a given and it's such a tiny adjustment to make on the speakers part.
Thank you for helping to clear that up!
 

Vivian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
325
England
Also, check out ContraPoints who is a wonderful voice on gender identity, trans identity, and just being a good human.
You might find this is a controversial recommendation. I'm not non-binary myself but many of my non-binary friends can't stand her - I gather she's been dismissive of non-binary identities and assigns too much importance to passing (which isn't meaningful outside of the binary, and shouldn't be important at all anyway!)

Anyway my partner is non-binary, as are several of my friends, so I'm really glad to see this thread! You're all beautiful and valid ❤
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355
You might find this is a controversial recommendation. I'm not non-binary myself but many of my non-binary friends can't stand her - I gather she's been dismissive of non-binary identities and assigns too much importance to passing (which isn't meaningful outside of the binary, and shouldn't be important at all anyway!)

Anyway my partner is non-binary, as are several of my friends, so I'm really glad to see this thread! You're all beautiful and valid ❤
That's interesting, I'll look into it. Thanks for letting me know.

If anyone else can shed more light on this one that would be awesome!
 

phonicjoy

Member
Jun 19, 2018
2,253
Aside from the videos on offer? We'll be adding stuff to the OP as people present them, I'm kind of relying on others a little here as I'm only just truly beginning to explore this all myself. We made the thread with some other members in similar positions because it it wasn't here already, and we wanted to just get the OP asap so we had a base to touch down.

For now I would highly recommend watching the videos in the OP and following recommended videos and things, and keep an eye on the thread as it will be added to as we go.

Also, check out ContraPoints who is a wonderful voice on gender identity, trans identity, and just being a good human.
Already a patron to Contrapoints :)

I was under the impression that the channels you posted were just non-binary creators, not background info, but I’ll have a look. Thank you.
 

phonicjoy

Member
Jun 19, 2018
2,253
While I would definitely agree that gender is at least in part a social construct, I wouldn't necessarily agree that that makes it not valid. The idea that gender is all nurture and no nature was advanced by John Money in the 1970s, but when he tried to put that theory into practice by performing reassignment surgery on a boy named David Reimer, it did not work out like that in practice. I accept the gender identifications of both cis and trans men and women as valid, I just am not sure they are the be-all and end-all of gender :)
See, I have no idea what there is in scientific background. I already try to be as careful as I can be about gender identification, but I’d like to to be more knowledgeable. Thank you!
 
Mar 9, 2018
482
I started wearing makeup. I want to be seen as a girl I'm just very manly I think. I have a video on my Instagram I just posted and everyone was very divided on it.
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,355
Already a patron to Contrapoints :)

I was under the impression that the channels you posted were just non-binary creators, not background info, but I’ll have a look. Thank you.
I just meant check their videos and linked stuff as they do speak about the things you're asking about in specific videos. Otherwise, please feel free to ask us anything ITT!
 
I started wearing makeup. I want to be seen as a girl I'm just very manly I think. I have a video on my Instagram I just posted and everyone was very divided on it.
heyy nice, keep up with practicing, sport!

I'm still not great with makeup, but i feel even a poor job on my face is an improvement XD

The thing I need to practice more is eyeliner and getting a good result with that
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
See, I have no idea what there is in scientific background. I already try to be as careful as I can be about gender identification, but I’d like to to be more knowledgeable. Thank you!
Glad you found my post helpful! Honestly I do get a lot of my info from Wikipedia, which I know has been involved in certain controversies regarding its representation of trans people (e.g. the Chelsea Manning thing), but if you read it critically and don't necessarily take everything there as unbiased, there's a lot of good information there.
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,328
Just 2 days ago I started working a post for pride month, but then I got cold feet. Mostly because in creating a thread specifically by myself I knew I'd be putting myself on the line to answer questions both genuine and not so genuine. I still may do so, so I won't post it in full here but here's a snippet.

But that's not to say it was a phase (btw, a phase that lasts over 20 years wouldn't be a phase anyways!) I still feel urges to do intentionally feminine things (or, at least how I mentally perceive being feminine, I know that's a much deeper discussion for another day). For example, I'll have a strong urge to just shave my legs. I'm typing this post right now with my nails painted a bright pink. Not because my daughter's favorite color is pink and I wanted to have a bonding experience with her... simply because that's what I wanted to do as a means to reflect that part of me that's still very much there.
It's the same as when I was a teenager finding things around being gently chided to "act more like a boy" or that that's "too girly".

So yeah, that's a lot of setup to say because of all that... it's hard to say "I feel like a boy" or "I feel like a girl". My mind was so muddled, so afraid of so many things for so long, it's hard to really separate out these kinds of feelings. I still long at times to express myself more as a woman, but at the same time I don't identify internally as a woman anymore than I do as a man.

It's true, I have both the support and the independence to pursue things farther. Watching Contrapoints together with my wife almost feels... voyeuristic at times. A glimpse of what I could do, but at the same time it's not for me. I see the pain she's going through masked through her humor and her videos and I know it would break me. And again, the me today can't see myself as a woman. If I was born a decade later, I could have seen myself being more brazen... having support groups online would have been a huge difference shaping me at that age.
Needless to say, it's much much longer as anyone's personal story would be in these kinds of situations.

As for the OP:

1. I still prefer he/him. I've tried other pronouns and they don't feel as natural to me.

2. It's hard to put into words something I've honestly not spent time trying to before. It's more of a freedom of restraints, at least when I get to express it. I'm at a point in my life where I don't worry (as much) about looking over my shoulder for the little oddities that I use to define myself.

3. Feels more like no gender. While I described it above as wanting to do feminine things, that's more in relation to how I was raised versus now. It's more like if I want to do something I just can without thinking of the underlying "boy" or "girl" of it.

4. My favorite thing is I feel like it's okay to connect to my daughters on any level. For instance, last night the 4 of us (me, my wife, and my two daughters) went out shopping for nail colors, and sat around and did each others nails. My daughters didn't question it, there was no judgement, we were just doing a family activity. As for negatives, it's always a negative meeting someone new. I present very straight male so I have a much easier time than I imagine others do but there will always always be a fear. This of course feeds into my Social Anxiety Disorder so always fun triggering a panic attack around new people. As for most surprising? How easy it was to discuss these things with my wife when we got married. 10 years later and I've never been happier or more myself.

5. Honestly? None that I can think of. I do love Contrapoints, but I often find it hard to connect with a lot of non-binary or trans individuals. I think it's because most of them have big personalities and I'm a pretty subdued person and I tend to prefer laid back personalities. I'm sure there are individuals like that out there, but I haven't felt a strong urge to seek them out either.

6. This is probably way too into my own head, but I do feel odd sometimes coming forward in being non-binary with how much I present myself as my birth sex. There is a certain comfort in being who you've always been forced to present yourself as and over time it has become part of how I view myself as much as I hated it as an adolescent. I feel guilty about it at times.

I've honestly been very lucky in my life. My parents were misguided, but always supportive and loving. I found my soul mate in someone who both understands and accepts me and even encourages me to explore beyond my previous limits. The me on the inside has changed enough over time to match my outsides without feeling compelled to physically modify my body for any sense of relief (though there have been many times in my life where I have gone weeks without sleep because of it).

But yes, thanks again OP for this thread.
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
heyy nice, keep up with practicing, sport!

I'm still not great with makeup, but i feel even a poor job on my face is an improvement XD

The thing I need to practice more is eyeliner and getting a good result with that
Do you use liquid or pencil? I started out trying to do liquid and it was so scarring that I didn't go near any makeup at all for months. I've found pencil to be a lot easier. Makeup sucks but I look soooo much better when I'm wearing it.

I definitely need more makeup practice, also more clothes. It can be frustrating because a lot of people don't have a framework for gender outside of "male" and "female". Even though I'm pretty ambivalent about "passing" if the only way I can be read as queer at all is by going over the top femme, I'm going to have to work at that!
 
Do you use liquid or pencil? I started out trying to do liquid and it was so scarring that I didn't go near any makeup at all for months. I've found pencil to be a lot easier. Makeup sucks but I look soooo much better when I'm wearing it.

I definitely need more makeup practice, also more clothes. It can be frustrating because a lot of people don't have a framework for gender outside of "male" and "female". Even though I'm pretty ambivalent about "passing" if the only way I can be read as queer at all is by going over the top femme, I'm going to have to work at that!
i mostly use pencil but i have both. One day i'll get perfect symmetric wings wah

On clothes, I mostly have things that would be super-femme for a guy, but more neutral if I was a woman. I'm not terribly interested in dresses or skirts, unless its just to go out and be like "HEY LOOK YALL IM WEARING A DRESS" XD

But heels, form-fitting pants and shirts, yes plz
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,328
While I don't think I'd look good in a dress, I've been tempted more and more to try out a kilt for out and about wear.



Something like that (beard included) fits my aesthetic a bit more closely.
 

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
499
When I was first coming out to myself about being non-binary, my main concern was that I wasn't non-binary enough to bother. The meme of "Everyone's gender is valid except for mine" is unfortunately kind of accurate in my experience. Eventually though I learned that cis people don't have thoughts of "damn, if only I was more gender dysphoric..." and then I just attempted to run with it and see where it goes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
817
United Kingdom
Like the the Transgender thread this thread is really well done and explains so much. I am neither trans or non binary so I hope I'm not intruding but I would just like to say what a great thread this is.
 
Like the the Transgender thread this thread is really well done and explains so much. I am neither trans or non binary so I hope I'm not intruding but I would just like to say what a great thread this is.
You're not intruding! The support and kind words are appreciated <3

When I was first coming out to myself about being non-binary, my main concern was that I wasn't non-binary enough to bother.
oh god this hits a bit close
 

BadAlchemy

Member
May 2, 2019
226
But heels, form-fitting pants and shirts, yes plz
I don't really do heels, I'm already self-conscious enough about my height (even though I'm not really that tall), but OMG leggings are the best, the most stupid and arbitrary thing about gender is that men aren't "supposed" to wear them. (I feel like if I wore skirts at all it would be over leggings.) The biggest problem is my skinny little chicken legs, there are so many boots that look fantastic (heels on boots I'm cool with) but are way too wide around for me.

I really need to work on tops as well. I'm working my way up to getting a fashion consult so I can figure out what looks are best for me.