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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,237
Did you read what I stated?
....

Do you mean this two?

"As a mid-generation release, we knew that whatever we did needed to require minimal effort from developers," Cerny explains. "We showed Days Gone running on PS4 Pro at the New York event. That work was small enough that a single programmer could do it. In general our target was to keep the work needed for PS4 Pro support to a fraction of a per cent of the overall effort needed to create a game, and I believe we have achieved that target."
The demo stacks up the maximum amount of cars and runs the full AI and physics simulations. It's a highly taxing stress test, used to enforce the strict budgets in Forza Motorsport to ensure the locked 60fps the series is famous for. The ForzaTech port to Scorpio took two days to complete and was fully performant from day one.
.....both are talking about scaling up.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
4,962
A streaming box doesn't cost $200. It just needs a basic cpu with hardware decoders for video. Like the chromecast ultra. It shouldn't cost more than $100 with the controller
I can accept that, okay Xbox Project Leo for $99.

All games are still built for Anaconda spec, as there would be no Lockhart to hold it back.

Xbox Leo streaming console/unit just streams Anaconda/Scarlett games at whatever resolution your internet connection can deal with, from Anaconda blades in the cloud.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
5,184
United Kingdom
We've got DF's dev sources and actual devs in this thread like Matt, Fafalada, dgrdsv etc on here confirming that porting down to a low spec. console is a pain in the ass, expensive and something that nobody wants to have to be burdened with... and yet faceless layman posters are still insisting, "b-b-but mid-gen consoles, it's easy, man. I am rite!"

I don't even...
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,073
Somewhere South
We've got DF's dev sources and actual devs in this thread like Matt, Fafalada, dgrdsv etc on here confirming that porting down to a low spec. console is a pain in the ass, expensive and something that nobody wants to have to be burdened with... and yet faceless layman posters are still insisting, "b-b-but mid-gen consoles, it's easy, man. I am rite!"

I don't even...
But I was told you just need to cut the resolution, Threads!
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,963
We've got DF's dev sources and actual devs in this thread like Matt, Fafalada, dgrdsv etc on here confirming that porting down to a low spec. console is a pain in the ass, expensive and something that nobody wants to have to be burdened with... and yet faceless layman posters are still insisting, "b-b-but mid-gen consoles, it's easy, man. I am rite!"

I don't even...
What worries me is that there are users in this thread who are enthusiastic about seeing Lockhart come back to life. We need strong baselines to push tech forward.
 

Kleegamefan

Member
Dec 16, 2017
793
We've got DF's dev sources and actual devs in this thread like Matt, Fafalada, dgrdsv etc on here confirming that porting down to a low spec. console is a pain in the ass, expensive and something that nobody wants to have to be burdened with... and yet faceless layman posters are still insisting, "b-b-but mid-gen consoles, it's easy, man. I am rite!"

I don't even...
+1

Seriously WTF.

I'm am never, ever going to comment on Lockhart ever again because it's a waste of time.

Besides, what I say isn't gospel anyway, plus I also have no desire to feed a senseless console war pissing match.

I believe one of the primary reasons some latch so tightly to the idea of Lockhart is because it justifys Scarlett Anaconda performance being above PS5, otherwise why even introduce Lockhart.

So, not going there....
 

NewtypeSp

Member
Jun 9, 2018
21
Another RDR2 video here. A "fairer" comparison, this time.

Running on a 530, a .65TF (base, it turbos a bit above that) GCN3 card. So, about half a Xbox One, using tech that is two GCN gens ahead. Screen res is 720p, internal scaling is 1/2, so it's doing less than half the resolution the Xbox One is doing. Also, everything turned to low or disabled, again, what should mitigate for some of the cut in memory and bandwidth. And yet it can't get anywhere near a consistent 30FPS.

And if you honestly think Lockhart would be just half GPU, without touching memory size and bandwidth, you're delusional.

That's not to say downporting isn't possible. It is very possible, it's just not as trivial as "half the res, turn off some stuff" as some of you think and/or imply.
This is not a good comparison, it has low RAM on the 530, which is causing a lot of stuttering.
 

Nobunny

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
836
So a single developer porting a game is going to break a budget? Or porting an engine in 2 days? Tools are also getting better, and this is going to be another generation where you are dealing with AMD tech. It is an evolution rather than the huge revolution we have been seeing in past generations.
You're taking roughly two quotes from a few years back and extrapolating them to seemingly every game/engine/developer, and also to a completely new console generation as well.

You could be right, but until we get better and newer information specific to this upcoming generation, we might want to hold off on any all encompassing claims of how effortless all this will be for developers.
 
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SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
4,962
We've got DF's dev sources and actual devs in this thread like Matt, Fafalada, dgrdsv etc on here confirming that porting down to a low spec. console is a pain in the ass, expensive and something that nobody wants to have to be burdened with... and yet faceless layman posters are still insisting, "b-b-but mid-gen consoles, it's easy, man. I am rite!"

I don't even...
Thank you for this post.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,019
All this talk about the Scarlett being hampered is interesting.

No matter what MS is saying right now, people are going to be left behind in Year 2 of the next gen.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,184
United Kingdom
Outside of the occasional technical discussion that far too often gets lost amid the madness of this thread, Kleegamefan 's occasional truthbombs and anexanhume 's subsequent reaction gif posts are really a highlight of the thread.

Thanks for keeping things bearable, gents.

But I was told you just need to cut the resolution, Threads!
WTF, don't you know I can run RDR2 on my Commadore 64.....!!!

In a whole twenty four pee, bitches!!!

What worries me is that there are users in this thread who are enthusiastic about seeing Lockhart come back to life. We need strong baselines to push tech forward.
I don't get it. The higher the spec. baseline for next-gen consoles, the more ambitious next-gen games will be.

It's like folks care more about a platform holder's price competitiveness than the overall quality of games next-gen.

+1

Seriously WTF.

I'm am never, ever going to comment on Lockhart ever again because it's a waste of time.

Besides, what I say isn't gospel anyway, plus I also have no desire to feed a senseless console war pissing match.

I believe one of the primary reasons some latch so tightly to the idea of Lockhart is because it justifys Scarlett Anaconda performance being above PS5, otherwise why even introduce Lockhart.

So, not going there....
The ironic thing is that a very low spec. Lockhart will actually mean games on Anaconda (especially exclusives) will not be made to take the full advantage of the higher spec box's hardware, because they'll be made for the path of least resistance, which is ported up from Lockhart.

So Lockhart proponents thinking Lockhart will make their Anaconda more powerful are in many ways biting of their own nose to spite their face.
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
Microsoft has been scaling down. Working on XB1X then scaling down to the S and base console with no issues, an example being Forza Horizon 4.
no they are not. no matter what anyone tells you, they are using x1 as the base and then porting it to x1x. the only reason why you see FH4 and Gears 5 running at native 4k is because of the fact that the base x1 versions were running at a quarter of a resolution. everything from the foliage, lighting, car models and destruction is pretty much identical across both versions. a 6 tflops gpu can do much more than what the forza and gears guys are currently doing with it. check out the anthem demo, the unity book of the damned demo and the UE4 storm demo to see what you can do with a 6 tflops gpu.

hell, by your logic, if MS does come out with a 6 tflops lockheart with next gen graphics taking full advantage of those 6 tflops, you will see that the games will look a generation ahead of forza horizon 4 and gears 5 simply because those 6 tflops wouldve been used to render actual next gen graphical effects than simply taking an image created for a 1.3 tflops gpu and making it run at 4x the pixels.

p.s scaling down will result in games that look like this.








 
Feb 26, 2018
2,510
The ironic thing is that a very low spec. Lockhart will actually mean games on Anaconda (especially exclusives) will not be made to take the full advantage of the higher spec box's hardware, because they'll be made for the path of least resistance, which is ported up from Lockhart.

So Lockhart proponents thinking Lockhart will make their Anaconda more powerful are in many ways biting of their own nose to spite their face.
Don't forget that cheaper Lockhart will be the best selling of the 2 (3 if you count PS5). So devs will prioritize the device that more people own
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,963
+1

Seriously WTF.

I'm am never, ever going to comment on Lockhart ever again because it's a waste of time.

Besides, what I say isn't gospel anyway, plus I also have no desire to feed a senseless console war pissing match.

I believe one of the primary reasons some latch so tightly to the idea of Lockhart is because it justifys Scarlett Anaconda performance being above PS5, otherwise why even introduce Lockhart.

So, not going there....
Yeah it's just a stupid thing. Especially when you and Matt have both mentioned performance between PS5 and Scarlett is close. You'd want things like 16GB GDDR6, 8 core Zen 2, and 10 TF to be baseline.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,733
Barcelona Spain
no they are not. no matter what anyone tells you, they are using x1 as the base and then porting it to x1x. the only reason why you see FH4 and Gears 5 running at native 4k is because of the fact that the base x1 versions were running at a quarter of a resolution. everything from the foliage, lighting, car models and destruction is pretty much identical across both versions. a 6 tflops gpu can do much more than what the forza and gears guys are currently doing with it. check out the anthem demo, the unity book of the damned demo and the UE4 storm demo to see what you can do with a 6 tflops gpu.

hell, by your logic, if MS does come out with a 6 tflops lockheart with next gen graphics taking full advantage of those 6 tflops, you will see that the games will look a generation ahead of forza horizon 4 and gears 5 simply because those 6 tflops wouldve been used to render actual next gen graphical effects than simply taking an image created for a 1.3 tflops gpu and making it run at 4x the pixels.

p.s scaling down will result in games that look like this.








There is worse

 
Oct 27, 2017
3,237
Florida
I just want Kojima to give me a next gen Snatcher and Playground to absolutely nail their RPG. Also a Destiny 3 with minimal loading and Halo Infinite with big fun sandboxes and interactive level design.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
But who said a single developer scale down FH4 game? They were porting the engine and scaled up. Don't try to talk about something you don't know. Devs know better than you armchair developer or you think developers are lazy?

Like I said if midgen were the base of the game we would have more polygons, fp 16 usage on Ps4 Pro and Xbox One X, double packed math usage on PS4 Pro and other improvement better exploited, probably sometimes better shaders. Midgen are easy because it is easy to scale up like all devs have done out of Playground Games. And like devs were doing on Lokchart.

And they explain the Lockhart problem to Microsoft and they decided to cancel it. Lochkhart will probably be the Xbox One family until they decide to let the Xbox One gamily behind without crossgen games.
Man, where are you reading any of this? I have stated it severally that Mark Cerny talked about a single developer porting Days Gone. I even quoted that very statement from the Eurogamer interview. I also gave a quote from Eurogamer where they stated that porting Forza's engine took two days, and the game (Forza Horizon 4) was made on higher spec then scaled down. I really struggle to see how these statements are being used liberally in an interchangeable manner.

If you have an issue with that, take it with the equipment manufacturers that also tend to have some top of the tier development houses that produce better work on their platforms than anyone else. Or are they armchair too?

You really need to stop looking at this from 'games might be downgraded' if there is a low hanging fruit because this is what game development has always been about, even more so this generation.
gremlinz1982 dude you got an reply from Matt about all this stuff but you ignored him

So devs did have problem with it. It's that simple
Did I?
....

Do you mean this two?





.....both are talking about scaling up.
Forza Engine - 2 days to port.
Days Gone - Ported by a single developer.
Forza Horizon 4 - Made on Xbox One X as lead platform and ported down.

All simple statements that can be easily counter checked. Why they are being confused despite being common knowledge is really beyond me.
You're taking roughly two quotes from a few years back and extrapolating them to seemingly every game/engine/developer, and also to a completely new console generation as well.

You could be right, but until we get better and newer information specific to this upcoming generation, we might want to hold off on any all encompassing claims of how effortless all this will be for developers.
So, an extension of what we have seen happen this generation cannot be something that platform holders and developers can learn from? Tools cannot get better?
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
I don't get it. The higher the spec. baseline for next-gen consoles, the more ambitious next-gen games will be.
This. they dont realize that they are sacrificing quality of next gen MS exclusives in favor of winning the sales war.

the PS3 era was my favorite Sony era. Yes, they were losing billions. yes, the PS3 ports were shoddy if not straight up terrible. But i loved it because their exclusives right from the get go looked much better than other multiplatform games. and then eventually they began to play better too. sales or being cheaper meant nothing to me as long as the games took full advantage of the cell. as soon as kz2 hit, it became apparent that the cell was the real deal and sony needed first party studios to take full advantage of it. if MS puts out a 12 tflops gpu and has devs target a 4 tflops gpu then they will be gimping themselves instead of setting themselves apart like sony did with KZ2, Uncharted 2 and GoW3.
 

Tntnico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24
New game coming to next gen consoles in 2022 : A Plague Tale 2 :) With maybe a first teaser in 2020 🤞

 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,237
Forza Engine - 2 days to port.
Days Gone - Ported by a single developer.
Forza Horizon 4 - Made on Xbox One X as lead platform and ported down.

All simple statements that can be easily counter checked. Why they are being confused despite being common knowledge is really beyond me.

He was talking about upscaling. It isn't about downscaling.

Also I didn't talk about how easy or hard upscaling was, it's that there are some developers, like CDProjekt who chose not to and even when they did 2 years later, had a few problems that needed other patches to fix.

We are clearly talking about two different things here.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
797
I don't know why people even like the idea of Lockhart. Have you guys not seen 3rd party games on Xbox one for the last 2 years. Even with lower resolution the frame rates are comprised even tough its not much weaker than PS4
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,184
United Kingdom
This. they dont realize that they are sacrificing quality of next gen MS exclusives in favor of winning the sales war.

the PS3 era was my favorite Sony era. Yes, they were losing billions. yes, the PS3 ports were shoddy if not straight up terrible. But i loved it because their exclusives right from the get go looked much better than other multiplatform games. and then eventually they began to play better too. sales or being cheaper meant nothing to me as long as the games took full advantage of the cell. as soon as kz2 hit, it became apparent that the cell was the real deal and sony needed first party studios to take full advantage of it. if MS puts out a 12 tflops gpu and has devs target a 4 tflops gpu then they will be gimping themselves instead of setting themselves apart like sony did with KZ2, Uncharted 2 and GoW3.
Agreed.
 

Thera

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,918
Is that so? Cool, seems i forgot this.
BGE2 was announced before next gen (which are not really announced yet). In fact, it was announced before actual gen.
They never specificially said on which platform the game will release. But from what we saw, it screems SSD. The data streaming and LOD transition is already insane and with barely any pop in.
 

Nobunny

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
836
So, an extension of what we have seen happen this generation cannot be something that platform holders and developers can learn from? Tools cannot get better?
Unfortunately we just don't have up to date quotes from developers pertaining to what they can or can't do with the upcoming hardware and tools to conclusively say how truly "easy" it is.

You're free to speculate, you could be right, but old quotes may just be old quotes. These type of things are rarely as cut and dry as the PR makes them seem, so I'm happy to wait and let developers speak for themselves.