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I have seen the light of HDR at last.

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,946
I must have something wrong with my eyes. I have an OLED and I can't notice if HDR is on or off. It makes no difference to me. The whole thing is just the latest marketing gimmick.
At this point I have to agree with this. I just bought the C9 and have tried a few HDR enabled stuff but most of the time it looks the same or washed out. I felt Death Stranding had decent implementation, but I actually turned it off to see if I could notice a real difference and I forgot for hours on end to turn it back on without really noticing.

Dolby Vision (that's also a form of HDR right?) also seems like a complete crapshoot. I watched The Mandalorian and it looks like complete shit, completely washed out image. Though admittedly it's not much better with Dolby Vision off. Also re-watched The Last Jedi yesterday and ended up turning it off there (or rather I had to watch it on Xbox because you can't turn off Dolby Vision, which is crazy), it generally just gives a washed-out image. Maybe it's Disney+, I dunno.

I played RDR2 on PS4 with HDR on and the image looks slightly more washed-out than without HDR. Really only Death Stranding seemed to have a slightly better image, but so far I'm not impressed.

But again, I do believe I haven't watched anything with proper HDR yet, so maybe when I do see it in its proper glory I'll be a believer.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
9,289
At this point I have to agree with this. I just bought the C9 and have tried a few HDR enabled stuff but most of the time it looks the same or washed out. I felt Death Stranding had decent implementation, but I actually turned it off to see if I could notice a real difference and I forgot for hours on end to turn it back on without really noticing.

Dolby Vision (that's also a form of HDR right?) also seems like a complete crapshoot. I watched The Mandalorian and it looks like complete shit, completely washed out image. Though admittedly it's not much better with Dolby Vision off. Also re-watched The Last Jedi yesterday and ended up turning it off there (or rather I had to watch it on Xbox because you can't turn off Dolby Vision, which is crazy), it generally just gives a washed-out image. Maybe it's Disney+, I dunno.

I played RDR2 on PS4 with HDR on and the image looks slightly more washed-out than without HDR. Really only Death Stranding seemed to have a slightly better image, but so far I'm not impressed.

But again, I do believe I haven't watched anything with proper HDR yet, so maybe when I do see it in its proper glory I'll be a believer.
Do you have Dynamic Tone Mapping ON? I just find it so weird, in all games I tried ( I don't have Death Stranding or RDR2) the difference when I turn HDR on and off is huge ( some more than others but still ).

The Mandalorian isn't proper HDR btw, it's mastered at 200 nits which is almost SDR levels.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,896
I followed quite a few guides to calibrate my ps pro for hdr properly. In games where you can turn hdr off and on in game I couldn’t tell the difference. Unless it was games that uses fake hdr like resident evil 2 where it looked worse.
?

Resident Evil 2 isn’t fake HDR. It’s HDR implementation is very good actually, it’s the color grading that’s fucked up because of some post processing effects in certain rooms that can give it that washed out look.

with that said, I just updated to the latest build of Windows 10 with a fresh install and a fresh install of graphics drivers and am now convinced that I was playing a lot of PC games with the HDR broken. Jedi Fallen Order HDR looked really flat and washed out. After the update the dark scenes look correct now and the highlights are still bright like they are supposed to be. Tried a couple other games and they all seem more “correct” now.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,896
Do you have Dynamic Tone Mapping ON? I just find it so weird, in all games I tried ( I don't have Death Stranding or RDR2) the difference when I turn HDR on and off is huge ( some more than others but still ).

The Mandalorian isn't proper HDR btw, it's mastered at 200 nits which is almost SDR levels.
Yeah, HDR is night and day on OLED with proper implementations.
 

Broken Hope

Member
Oct 27, 2017
682
HDR really does add a lot to the image when using a proper display. Unfortunately there's a lot of dubious marketing and information out there. A lot of lower-end TV's that support "HDR" really only support processing the image, not necessarily displaying it properly. On these TV's you may not even be able to tell a difference against SDR, and even worse some may display an image that is less accurate and looks worse than SDR.

Unfortunately TV's that do really good HDR are still prohibitively expensive for a lot of people. As an LG C9 oled owner, HDR really does look great, but it's not such an enormous difference that others make it out to be. If I was looking at cheaper TV's, I would look for something that has a good/accurate 4K SDR image and not even worry about HDR.
It is an enormous difference though, watch something like One Planet or Planet Earth or Seven worlds, one planet and you see a huge difference from HDR.

I hate watching SDR stuff on my C9.
 
Oct 27, 2017
372
It is an enormous difference though, watch something like One Planet or Planet Earth or Seven worlds, one planet and you see a huge difference from HDR.

I hate watching SDR stuff on my C9.
Yes it's a big difference, but it's not transformative. My point is that people who maybe can't afford a good HDR display, or just don't want to spend that kind of money on a TV, shouldn't feel like they're missing out on the experience of the content. At the end of the day, it's just more detailed brightness/highlights and deeper color. If I was on a budget, I'd rather watch an accurate SDR image than a subpar/inaccurate "HDR" one.
 

Lump

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,085
At this point I have to agree with this. I just bought the C9 and have tried a few HDR enabled stuff but most of the time it looks the same or washed out. I felt Death Stranding had decent implementation, but I actually turned it off to see if I could notice a real difference and I forgot for hours on end to turn it back on without really noticing.

Dolby Vision (that's also a form of HDR right?) also seems like a complete crapshoot. I watched The Mandalorian and it looks like complete shit, completely washed out image. Though admittedly it's not much better with Dolby Vision off. Also re-watched The Last Jedi yesterday and ended up turning it off there (or rather I had to watch it on Xbox because you can't turn off Dolby Vision, which is crazy), it generally just gives a washed-out image. Maybe it's Disney+, I dunno.

I played RDR2 on PS4 with HDR on and the image looks slightly more washed-out than without HDR. Really only Death Stranding seemed to have a slightly better image, but so far I'm not impressed.

But again, I do believe I haven't watched anything with proper HDR yet, so maybe when I do see it in its proper glory I'll be a believer.
Disney+ is doing Dolby Vision dirty for most of its content.

In terms of streaming services, Netflix content that’s in Dolby Vision is usually implemented properly. This is because Netflix original content makes the bulk of its Dolby Vision content, and Netflix requires most of their original content to make use of specific hardware and processes for shooting. While this doesn’t automatically translate to a good HDR image via Dolby Vision (it still takes effort in post production to do it right), it means that you usually see at least a little benefit or a whole lot of benefit. Altered Carbon is Netflix’s standout example of excellent Dolby Vision.

Apple TV+ has the best Dolby Vision implementation of all the streaming services without question - when they fucking remember to upload episodes with it enabled (for over three weeks, new episodes of Apple TV+ content have been uploaded in standard HDR10 instead of dynamic Dolby Vision - maybe it’s incompetence, maybe it’s some technical workaround for something ridiculous, maybe it’s a licensing issue, who the fuck knows but Apple). But, when Dolby Vision actually pops up on Apple TV+ content, you are in for a fantastic time. Apple’s camera and post production requirements must be outright draconian compared to Netflix to achieve this, but it’s a good end result for the consumer.

Disney+ though - they give no fucks. They’re slapping Dolby Vision on most of their content in the exact same way IMAX logos started to appear on basically regular sized cinema auditoriums. Disney+ is LieMAXing Dolby Vision. There are exceptions - anything actually mastered in Dolby Vision like Moana looks great in Dolby Vision on Disney+. But if it wasn’t mastered in Dolby Vision (like the vast majority of content on the service), you’re going to get a shitty Dolby Vision experience. Even premier original content and extremely high profile releases like Mandalorian and the Star Wars films have suboptimal brights which indicate that the bare minimum was done to wrap it in a Dolby Vision logo.
 

Nakenorm

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
5,466
Sweden
Man I'm so excited for new consoles. Ordered a new tv on Black Friday, my old one was from around 2010 or so so should be a pretty noticably upgrade. Problem is I won't be able to use hdr, 4k or anything like that because I'm still using a standard PS4.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,103
That must be the wrong model I linked. Mine most definitely has HDR. Maybe I downloaded the wrong manual... hmm. I'll fire it up later and see if I can bring up the exact model # later.

Edit: ah found it, I was looking at the wrong manual, got the model from the TV settings: https://www.lg.com/hk_en/tv/lg-55UH6150
No local dimming, very poor peak brightness and doesn't support wide color gamut. It really doesn't have HDR other than the fact that it can take an HDR signal. This is one of the examples of marketing saying something has HDR when it doesn't really. But again, wait for a HDMI 2.1 set at this point.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,946
Disney+ is doing Dolby Vision dirty for most of its content.

In terms of streaming services, Netflix content that’s in Dolby Vision is usually implemented properly. This is because Netflix original content makes the bulk of its Dolby Vision content, and Netflix requires most of their original content to make use of specific hardware and processes for shooting. While this doesn’t automatically translate to a good HDR image via Dolby Vision (it still takes effort in post production to do it right), it means that you usually see at least a little benefit or a whole lot of benefit. Altered Carbon is Netflix’s standout example of excellent Dolby Vision.

Apple TV+ has the best Dolby Vision implementation of all the streaming services without question - when they fucking remember to upload episodes with it enabled (for over three weeks, new episodes of Apple TV+ content have been uploaded in standard HDR10 instead of dynamic Dolby Vision - maybe it’s incompetence, maybe it’s some technical workaround for something ridiculous, maybe it’s a licensing issue, who the fuck knows but Apple). But, when Dolby Vision actually pops up on Apple TV+ content, you are in for a fantastic time. Apple’s camera and post production requirements must be outright draconian compared to Netflix to achieve this, but it’s a good end result for the consumer.

Disney+ though - they give no fucks. They’re slapping Dolby Vision on most of their content in the exact same way IMAX logos started to appear on basically regular sized cinema auditoriums. Disney+ is LieMAXing Dolby Vision. There are exceptions - anything actually mastered in Dolby Vision like Moana looks great in Dolby Vision on Disney+. But if it wasn’t mastered in Dolby Vision (like the vast majority of content on the service), you’re going to get a shitty Dolby Vision experience. Even premier original content and extremely high profile releases like Mandalorian and the Star Wars films have suboptimal brights which indicate that the bare minimum was done to wrap it in a Dolby Vision logo.
That's some good info, thanks!

/edit: I've just checked out a few Netflix shows and they all pretty much blow Disney+ outta the water, even just in image quality. It seems Moana on Disney plus is just standard HD over here (The Netherlands) so I couldn't check that out.
 
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dedge

Member
Sep 15, 2019
209
Man I'm so excited for new consoles. Ordered a new tv on Black Friday, my old one was from around 2010 or so so should be a pretty noticably upgrade. Problem is I won't be able to use hdr, 4k or anything like that because I'm still using a standard PS4.
Actually all PS4 models can do HDR so you can still get that benefit with compatible games.

Also while a lot of the Star Wars D+ content is weak HDR, The Force Awakens does hit those higher nits.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,243
I have an OLED B7 and see no difference between HDR on and off beside a few light sources feeling slightly brighter. Is there something wrong with my settings(or my eyes) or is that all there is to it?
 

dedge

Member
Sep 15, 2019
209
Whoa, really? I had no idea! Is there a list available somewhere? Might be time to get that lost legacy platinum

This is a good starting point, HDR compatible games will have HDR next to them in the list. Most of the Sony first party games have really good HDR and more and more 3rd party releases are implementing it too. I actually played through Lost Legacy in SDR and have been meaning to go back to it in HDR.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,211
Basically anyone that says HDR looks "washed out" is either looking at something with a bad implementation, has their TV settings wrong or is used to a grossly oversaturated image in the first place.
 

Nakenorm

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
5,466
Sweden

This is a good starting point, HDR compatible games will have HDR next to them in the list. Most of the Sony first party games have really good HDR and more and more 3rd party releases are implementing it too. I actually played through Lost Legacy in SDR and have been meaning to go back to it in HDR.
Thanks! Now I just gotta figure out all these game mode settings haha
 

Rogue Kiwi

Member
May 5, 2019
261
That's fine but some of the people in this thread have frankly been pretty rude. Take the first reply for instance. Just a drive by shitting on his TV. Not sure how that helps anyone. You can tell someone the truth without being rude about it is what I'm saying.
If that first reply is rude to you you must think every single piece of advice you've ever received is rude.

I'm guessing you're either defensive because you fell into the same trap as OP or you're a Tv sales consman that shits on people trying to help each other out.
 
Jun 10, 2018
289
At this point I have to agree with this. I just bought the C9 and have tried a few HDR enabled stuff but most of the time it looks the same or washed out. I felt Death Stranding had decent implementation, but I actually turned it off to see if I could notice a real difference and I forgot for hours on end to turn it back on without really noticing.

Dolby Vision (that's also a form of HDR right?) also seems like a complete crapshoot. I watched The Mandalorian and it looks like complete shit, completely washed out image. Though admittedly it's not much better with Dolby Vision off. Also re-watched The Last Jedi yesterday and ended up turning it off there (or rather I had to watch it on Xbox because you can't turn off Dolby Vision, which is crazy), it generally just gives a washed-out image. Maybe it's Disney+, I dunno.

I played RDR2 on PS4 with HDR on and the image looks slightly more washed-out than without HDR. Really only Death Stranding seemed to have a slightly better image, but so far I'm not impressed.

But again, I do believe I haven't watched anything with proper HDR yet, so maybe when I do see it in its proper glory I'll be a believer.
I wouldn't use The Mandalorian as reference for HDR. It may be a good show, but the HDR is comeplete trash as detailed by HDTV Test and Evil Boris. Not sure about the other Star Wars films, but the original trilogy also has pretty bad HDR as well on Disney+.
 

Nakenorm

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
5,466
Sweden
I wouldn't use The Mandalorian as reference for HDR. It may be a good show, but the HDR is comeplete trash as detailed by HDTV Test and Evil Boris. Not sure about the other Star Wars films, but the original trilogy also has pretty bad HDR as well on Disney+.
So as a total newbie when it comes to stuff like this, should I then turn off HDR when watching stuff like mandalorian? Or is it still usually an improvement even if not as noticable?
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
9,289
I have an OLED B7 and see no difference between HDR on and off beside a few light sources feeling slightly brighter. Is there something wrong with my settings(or my eyes) or is that all there is to it?
Are you up with your firmware? I remember reading LG busted the 7 series HDR Game mode for a long while until they corrected it again. Also turn on Dynamic Contrast because it's sort of a Dynamic Tone Mapping that the 8 and 9 models have and may help boost the brigthness even more.
 

Bubukill

Member
Oct 25, 2017
751
Panama
I bought a Samsung NU7090 series (2019) 50 inch for $350 here in my country, which was a very good deal on this past Black Friday; and I'm mind blown by the HDR too. Currently watching 4K HDR videos nature on YouTube, Netflix 4K and Apple TV +; especially the HDR on videogames such as Horizon Zero Dawn and Death Stranding.


I was not really considering buying a 4K TV this Black Friday though I won the lotery on same date so I decided to pull the trigger. Though my plan was to purchase an LG OLED TV or QLED TV by Samsung next year, lol; this may depend on how the next gen consoles develop their features and whether the HDMI 2.1 benefit would be implemented in many games or not.



EDIT: also, almost forgot to mention that it is very but very important to calibrate your TV accordingly. TVs picture qualities and color are always a bit of a mess by default.

I recommend making some research on some TV reviewers and youtubers with knowledge on the subject in order to calibrate your specific TV model to get the most natural and realistic picture quality and colors out of your TV capabilities.

I though my new TV was a bit undewhelming at the beginning, then I did some researches and ended up finding an excellent picture quality with noticeable HDR improvement thanks to a Russian guy who knows how to calibrate TVs.
 
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ItIsOkBro

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I bought a Samsung NU7090 series (2019) 50 inch for $350 here in my country, which was a very good deal on this past Black Friday; and I'm mind blown by the HDR too. Currently watching 4K HDR videos nature on YouTube, Netflix 4K and Apple TV +; especially the HDR on videogames such as Horizon Zero Dawn and Death Stranding.


I was not really considering buying a 4K TV this Black Friday though I won the lotery on same date so I decided to pull the trigger. Though my plan was to purchase an LG OLED TV or QLED TV by Samsung next year, lol; this may depend on how the next gen consoles develop their features and whether the HDMI 2.1 benefit would be implemented in many games or not.



EDIT: also, almost forgot to mention that it is very but very important to calibrate your TV accordingly. TVs picture qualities and color are always a bit of a mess by default.

I recommend making some research on some TV reviewers and youtubers with knowledge on the subject in order to calibrate your specific TV model to get the most natural and realistic picture quality and colors out of your TV capabilities.

I though my new TV was a bit undewhelming at the beginning, then I did some researches and ended up finding an excellent picture quality with noticeable HDR improvement thanks to a Russian guy who knows how to calibrate TVs.
is this not the same tv OP bought?
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,168
What it comes down to is that most people upgrading from an old 1080p or less TV will see a benefit from getting a TV made in the past 3 years, even if it doesn't have good HDR.
 
Jun 10, 2018
289
So as a total newbie when it comes to stuff like this, should I then turn off HDR when watching stuff like mandalorian? Or is it still usually an improvement even if not as noticable?
I guess you could always try and see what looks best to you. I have no clear answer on whether you should watch in SDR or HDR because I never watched The Mandalorian in SDR.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,748
At this point I have to agree with this. I just bought the C9 and have tried a few HDR enabled stuff but most of the time it looks the same or washed out. I felt Death Stranding had decent implementation, but I actually turned it off to see if I could notice a real difference and I forgot for hours on end to turn it back on without really noticing.

Dolby Vision (that's also a form of HDR right?) also seems like a complete crapshoot. I watched The Mandalorian and it looks like complete shit, completely washed out image. Though admittedly it's not much better with Dolby Vision off. Also re-watched The Last Jedi yesterday and ended up turning it off there (or rather I had to watch it on Xbox because you can't turn off Dolby Vision, which is crazy), it generally just gives a washed-out image. Maybe it's Disney+, I dunno.

I played RDR2 on PS4 with HDR on and the image looks slightly more washed-out than without HDR. Really only Death Stranding seemed to have a slightly better image, but so far I'm not impressed.

But again, I do believe I haven't watched anything with proper HDR yet, so maybe when I do see it in its proper glory I'll be a believer.
I have the same tv as you and no offense but if you cant see the difference with hdr on or off then please, eyes checked now. Its like, night and day. Almost literally in terms of brightness and color lmao.

Things should *never* appear washed out. It should be the opposite. The total opposite.
 

ZOONAMI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,398
Really wish monitors weren't so behind when it comes to HDR. Until they catch up I'm probably not playing in HDR until the PS6 generation.
yep there are basically zero monitors that have decent hdr. I have a pixio 277h which is a pretty good one but it’s discontinued. 144hz freesync 2 ips with 600 nit hdr.

but according to the standards an ips basically can’t check all the boxes because of contrast ratio, but in my experience VA monitors suck vs ips.
 

Lionheart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
865
At this point I have to agree with this. I just bought the C9 and have tried a few HDR enabled stuff but most of the time it looks the same or washed out. I felt Death Stranding had decent implementation, but I actually turned it off to see if I could notice a real difference and I forgot for hours on end to turn it back on without really noticing.

Dolby Vision (that's also a form of HDR right?) also seems like a complete crapshoot. I watched The Mandalorian and it looks like complete shit, completely washed out image. Though admittedly it's not much better with Dolby Vision off. Also re-watched The Last Jedi yesterday and ended up turning it off there (or rather I had to watch it on Xbox because you can't turn off Dolby Vision, which is crazy), it generally just gives a washed-out image. Maybe it's Disney+, I dunno.

I played RDR2 on PS4 with HDR on and the image looks slightly more washed-out than without HDR. Really only Death Stranding seemed to have a slightly better image, but so far I'm not impressed.

But again, I do believe I haven't watched anything with proper HDR yet, so maybe when I do see it in its proper glory I'll be a believer.
Mandalorian and RDR2...honestly 2 shite implementations of HDR.

I have a C9, go play Spiderman, Horizon and GT Sport and you will see a big difference. I didn't do too much A/Bing with Death Stranding but it still looks great to me.

I was playing Jedi Order the other day, I was thinking man this has awesome HDR but there is no actual way to turn it off so I couldn't A/B it. Then I booted the game up again and HDR glitched and turned off. Looked like a different game. At first I was thinking man this level is ugly but then I realized HDR was off. Reboot the game and the same level looked awesome. Its not just brightness, its dark scenes and the contrast between the two. Highlights shining off the floor. The Robots lights on the back I could make out individually and it pops. Honestly Jedi Order is a fantastic implementation as well.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,103
How many nits is proper HDR?
Ideal right now is 1000 nits. A lot of content is mastered at 1000 nits. If you have a set that is 1000 nits, has good black levels, enough local dimming if you're LCD, etc, then you don't even need Dolby Vision; HDR10 would likely just be fine on that set. One of the misconceptions is that Dolby Vision is always better than HDR10 where as the reality is Dolby Vision helps compensate if you can't display HDR10 properly.
 
OP
OP
Tahnit

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,139
So i took it back and got the TCL. MUCH better. Colors are brighter and i can tell a difference with the wide color gamut.
 

ZOONAMI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,398
So i took it back and got the TCL. MUCH better. Colors are brighter and i can tell a difference with the wide color gamut.
nice! Yeah it’s a good set. My only real complaint is they really cheaped out on the remote. Thankfully you can buy a proper roku voice remote for like $20. My other roku remote with the built in headphone jack also pairs with it so no biggie.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,103
So i took it back and got the TCL. MUCH better. Colors are brighter and i can tell a difference with the wide color gamut.
Enjoy the new set and it's a step up from what you bought initially but just keep in mind that it still falls short of what HDR really looks like. That just means you have more to look forward to down the line.
 

ZOONAMI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,398
Enjoy the new set and it's a step up from what you bought initially but just keep in mind that it still falls short of what HDR really looks like. That just means you have more to look forward to down the line.
I have a b7 that is calibrated and even usb updated with dv profiles per the settings from the era thread. This set does a great job with hdr. I barely have a preference to use the oled downstairs vs the tcl in the br now. Using the brighter hdr modes this thing is pretty damn bright and you can correct for the cool color shift using those modes. It’s definitely around 400 nits or brighter and rtings even admits it hits 374 nits in normal hdr modes and that’s the middle brightness setting.

also, OP has repeatedly said he is only looking in the 43” size. This is the best you can do in that size. The q6 and vizio m 43 are not appreciably brighter and the vizio has a severely cut down 12 zone fald implementation and the q6 also lacks fald. They are all in the 6000:1 contrast ratio range and all have wcg. The tcl is just $150-250 cheaper.

like you can’t actually buy an appreciably better hdr set that’s under 50”

also, for what’s its worth the tcl 5 gets a perfect 10 from rtings in 4k iq, the 6 series does not and neither does a Samsung q60.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,243
Are you up with your firmware? I remember reading LG busted the 7 series HDR Game mode for a long while until they corrected it again. Also turn on Dynamic Contrast because it's sort of a Dynamic Tone Mapping that the 8 and 9 models have and may help boost the brigthness even more.
Yea it has the latest firmware. I might have to tune the settings. What reliable website/YT channel that has this kind of info would you recommend?
 

ZOONAMI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,398
Yea it has the latest firmware. I might have to tune the settings. What reliable website/YT channel that has this kind of info would you recommend?
Yea it has the latest firmware. I might have to tune the settings. What reliable website/YT channel that has this kind of info would you recommend?
Era got ya covered

 
Oct 27, 2017
1,243

EvilBoris

HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
6,959
So as a total newbie when it comes to stuff like this, should I then turn off HDR when watching stuff like mandalorian? Or is it still usually an improvement even if not as noticable?
Usually there is zero reason to ever turn it off

Usually the worst case scanario for movie content is that it’s too dark to watch in anything but a pitch black room.
Mandalorian is a bit like that as was RDR2 at launch.

The improvement can range from not something you can’t easily notice without a bit of training, right through to “holy moly that’s looks real”.