Dreams - Review Thread

Where will Dreams end up?


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ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,939
The toolset is robust. The DAW by itself is insane. This "game", Dreams, has a fully functioning, fully scriptable DAW built into it and it's not even the main event. The potential this platform has as far as games go is very real... But this presents a bit of a contradiction. A mixed message. Here's a full dev system for making games, but it's something no one is really going to do. It's a complete contradiction.
I suppose we have a fundamental disagreement here. I don't think there's a contradiction here - having a ridiculously powerful toolbox doesn't inherently have anything to do with what should or needs to be achieved with it. Just because it's possible to create a 10-hour long nigh on AA quality game with it, it's not the end game goal here. That's not to mention that even though Dreams is a game itself, it doesn't mean the creation has to be a game, or that "full potential" means "full games" in my opinion.

The reality is, no matter how intuitive or accessible your tools are, making a game is *very very hard* and takes *many, many hours*. The only thing in reach for anyone who doesn't commit to a large project are scattered, incomplete thoughts, tech demos, and, perhaps very occasionally, a completed, very small game. Something akin to a small flash game on kongregate (not a large flash game, but one of the smaller ones. The vast majority of people making flash games were doing it because they could make money through kongregate/armor games sponsorships).
While you're obviously right about game development being *very very hard* and taking *many, many hours* (I unfortunately also have some experience there too, before I realized what a fucking pain game development really is), I think a crucial difference here is collaboration and sharing - something I shortly elaborated on in the post you quoted, but unfortunately edited it in too late for you to see it.

I believe the goal here is to cultivate a community that shares everything and anything. Not like you would share open-source libraries on github or sell full asset sets on the Unity asset store, but everything from the smallest objects to the biggest system templates you created would by default be available to everyone (I don't have the game yet and it's been a while since the beta so my memory is a bit fuzzy on the actual logistics here, though), with the important note that everything can just be dragged-and-dropped into your Dream. Everything is easy. The idealistic future here is that if you wanted to create, say, a small GTA clone, you wouldn't have to make everything from scratch yourself. From scratch it would be a ridiculous undertaking, but after a year or two the Dream library (or whatever it's actually called in the game) could very well have great implementations for third-person movement and combat, driving, various AI routines and endless amount of pedestrian, car, building etc. models, all of which you could essentially just drag-and-drop into your Dream in an evening or two.

At the risk of sounding dramatic, I definitely think introducing monetization - especially a harder type like an "asset store" sort where people would lock their content behind paywalls - would thoroughly corrupt the culture and the idealistic future would become an impossible future.

I know some of you may insist otherwise, but from the player perspective, scattered, incomplete thoughts and tech demos aren't going to be compelling for very long. The novelty of that wears off quickly.
To be completely frank, I don't understand why the novelty of playing "full" games that were created in a game would last any longer. Because that's the thing, here - the interesting part isn't playing a full game, the interesting part is playing a full game that was created with another game. After you've played a few of those, what's the reason to really play more? Because if you're willing to pay money for full games and you're looking to play some, why would you boot up Dreams and not... the PS Store or Steam or something, with their vastly bigger libraries and explore/discover functions made to actually find new games to play, and not just new cool things, whatever they may be.

And, of course, this leads to an important clarification on my part - I'm not against every type of monetization. I think being able to sell your games on PSN as completely separate packages is a great idea, and a.. Let's say light Patreon integration or something similar would be good, too. But I'm vehemently against any type of monetization that actively discourages sharing and collaborating, and I don't think money should be involved this early at all. Maybe in a year or two, depending on how the community and culture fare.
 
Feb 10, 2018
16,843
Sorry but no one is forcing them to buy Dreams, they know exactly what they are doing buying it and crafting levels. No one owes them anything for doing it. It's not a job.

I am not the artistic type, I would only buy Dreams to try some interesting things people have made. If I had to buy it then spend money to try each level? Hell no. That's the same reason I don't buy phone games or microtransaction stuff. It would kill it day 1.

If people could use it to make fully functioning games that were sold separately on PSN rather than on Dreams itself I wouldn't have an issue though as that's not the same thing but I imagine that would be a more complicated proposal.
Even with this taken into account it is still a feature some would appreciate, this discussion is starting to sound like a broken record with the points just being repeated.
I acknowledge your points and I ask that you and others acknowledge that some people would like donation and monetisation built in.
 

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,605
Vandal 8.7

GameBlog.fr 9/10
Sometimes, even the most ambitious dreams come true, but their appreciation still depends on people's aspirations and imagination.

A few more ghostcrew
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,102
And, of course, this leads to an important clarification on my part - I'm not against every type of monetization. I think being able to sell your games on PSN as completely separate packages is a great idea, and a.. Let's say light Patreon integration or something similar would be good, too. But I'm vehemently against any type of monetization that actively discourages sharing and collaborating, and I don't think money should be involved this early at all. Maybe in a year or two, depending on how the community and culture fare.
Are there any rules that prevent people from running Patreons?
 

Coolsambob

Member
Oct 27, 2017
444
I just finished (I think) Art's Dream and what the fuck? It's one of the best things I've played! I genuinely cannot get my head around this.
 

Wonderment

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
11,233
My kid (10yo) wanted it for Valentine's Day, out of nowhere. We went through the intro up to creating the homespace. "This is neat" was the assessment up to this point. Then we went into the dreams and pulled down the K2SO demo. Then the reaction from the kid was "You really can create anything!!!". Two hours later, still in the dreamshaping area just fiddling with the tools without even doing the tutorials, haven't even played anything yet.
 
Oct 24, 2019
1,356
My kid (10yo) wanted it for Valentine's Day, out of nowhere. We went through the intro up to creating the homespace. "This is neat" was the assessment up to this point. Then we went into the dreams and pulled down the K2SO demo. Then the reaction from the kid was "You really can create anything!!!". Two hours later, still in the dreamshaping area just fiddling with the tools without even doing the tutorials, haven't even played anything yet.
do you feel like you can still make things pretty easily without looking at tutorials? Really want to try the game with my gf later tonight, but don’t feel like spending hours going through dry tutorials lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,897
My kid (10yo) wanted it for Valentine's Day, out of nowhere. We went through the intro up to creating the homespace. "This is neat" was the assessment up to this point. Then we went into the dreams and pulled down the K2SO demo. Then the reaction from the kid was "You really can create anything!!!". Two hours later, still in the dreamshaping area just fiddling with the tools without even doing the tutorials, haven't even played anything yet.
Nice. Making stuff is a delight. On my second time through Art's Dream and it's just as lovely, if not more so. Enjoy.
 

Wonderment

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
11,233
do you feel like you can still make things pretty easily without looking at tutorials? Really want to try the game with my gf later tonight, but don’t feel like spending hours going through dry tutorials lol
Yes and no. There are so many functions and tools to browse through, but throwing a few things down is pretty quick. But if you like to be guided through things, even the basic tutorials will take a while to get through. In regular MM fashion, doing the tutorials unlocks assets to use in your own dreams, so I know I'll have to do them eventually.

So it kinda cuts down the middle for me, everything is accessible and pick-up-and-play from the jump, but that initial investment in understanding how things fit together still needs to be made.
 

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,605
Jeuxvideo.com 9/10

With Dreams, creativity reaches new heights. No, the newcomer will not succeed in creating his indie nugget without spending hours of research and production, but the philosophy of the program can only be congratulated. Media Molecule delivers the ultimate game creation game, even if it requires a personal investment beyond comprehension.

One more ghostcrew
 
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Electro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,745
Vienna
Gamespot Early Review Impressions
I need to play through more of these tutorials before delivering a final verdict on Dreams, but so far it's a fascinating and frequently breathtaking game. Media Molecule released Dreams in early access less than a year ago, but the community has already developed some stunning creations that exhibit imagination, innovation, and artistry. With the game now in more people's hands, and with more time on the clock for other creators, the future of Dreams is an exciting proposition. You can expect my full review early next week.
 

growler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
50
Wow, this is getting much better reviews than I expected! I've played on and off since the beta started and it wouldn't surprise me if it one day transcends into an full blown engine. It's a fun and intuitive way to test out bite-sized ideas, my only real gripe is that they keep delaying PSVR capabilities.
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,668
Madrid
My kid (10yo) wanted it for Valentine's Day, out of nowhere. We went through the intro up to creating the homespace. "This is neat" was the assessment up to this point. Then we went into the dreams and pulled down the K2SO demo. Then the reaction from the kid was "You really can create anything!!!". Two hours later, still in the dreamshaping area just fiddling with the tools without even doing the tutorials, haven't even played anything yet.
This is great, thanks for the wholesome post. Kids using creative tools and loving it is always awesome. :)
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,376
Wow, this is getting much better reviews than I expected!
I think I was fearful that some reviewers would... well quite frankly have the same cynicism that so many naysayers on this forum portray in these kind of threads. Ultimately though the Dreams package is just so big, so ambitious, so polished. Art's Dream is clearly very good (have played a few levels so far, but taking it slow) and Dreams is clearly a powerful enough game engine to create great digital experiences. The breadth of the tutorials is, perhaps still not entirely sufficient, but goes so far beyond what any equivalent game or tool provides. If you like games... Dreams is pretty hard not to like.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
9,633
The game is really something special. Has that newgrounds vibe to it that I’ve not really felt in full since then. Phenomenal accomplishment when you step back and look at it. Glad it’s getting great reviews, deserves to stand out.
 

Sparkedglory2

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,865
Oh wow. I was hoping dreams would do well, but I didn’t think it would review THIS well. Congrats Mm and hopefully the game sells just as well as it’s reviewing. I love this kind of stuff.
 

TheRulingRing

Member
Apr 6, 2018
4,082
Honestly I'm a bit surprised too. I thought the reviewers would be much harsher due to the very short campaign.

I'm still yet to be convinced that this won't just be full of mini-games though, and a nice long campaign would have made it a smaller risk.
 

Ruu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
190
I've messed around with it a little and it's extremely impressive. I've mentioned it in other threads but before anyone sees the high reviews and jumps right in without knowing more you really should make sure you know what you're getting into. If I had had this game as a kid it would have changed my life. This is exactly what I always wanted. So if you know a kid (probably 10-14yrs old) this would be an amazing game for them assuming they have the drive for game development. Or if you just have a passing interest as a game designer as a hobby or maybe you cant program so you want to prototype some ideas it could also be great. If you are someone who just wants to play the games and not create however you should set your expectations accordingly. A lot of creations are EXTREMELY impressive but theres a difference between impressive and fun. My kids and I checked out a lot of games and stuff and while neat to look at for like a minute (or less in some cases) there wasn't a single one we wanted to ever go back to.
 

DeathyG

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,772
NW Indiana
So glad it's fully released and getting great scores. Congrats to MM.

There are hundreds of awesome creations already from early access. Excited to see what the future holds.

Eagerly awaiting VR support. Now that will be a gamechanger.
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,024
NJ
I don't really care a lot if it has monetization or not for my own uses. I don't plan to make a game in Dreams, because I already use other software for that. I'm just saying that after sampling the toolset for myself, and after surfing creations for myself, from the perspective of a gamedev I think monetization is the the most important question/decision that will be made for this platform... And I'll explain why I think that.

The toolset is robust. The DAW by itself is insane. This "game", Dreams, has a fully functioning, fully scriptable DAW built into it and it's not even the main event. The potential this platform has as far as games go is very real... But this presents a bit of a contradiction. A mixed message. Here's a full dev system for making games, but it's something no one is really going to do. It's a complete contradiction.

The reality is, no matter how intuitive or accessible your tools are, making a game is *very very hard* and takes *many, many hours*. The only thing in reach for anyone who doesn't commit to a large project are scattered, incomplete thoughts, tech demos, and, perhaps very occasionally, a completed, very small game. Something akin to a small flash game on kongregate (not a large flash game, but one of the smaller ones. The vast majority of people making flash games were doing it because they could make money through kongregate/armor games sponsorships).

I know some of you may insist otherwise, but from the player perspective, scattered, incomplete thoughts and tech demos aren't going to be compelling for very long. The novelty of that wears off quickly.

If you want to see the platform realize its potential, there must be a way to either export your project and sell it elsewhere, or receive tips/payments in-game somehow. If there's not, I just don't see how Dreams goes anywhere. The only fleshed out Dream I've seen is the story mode of the game, by media molecule, Art's Dream, and I promise you that took a team of people many many hours to accomplish. Something no one is doing for free. Those devs are paid a salary.
All interesting points and well articulated. While I do disagree slightly that there aren’t experiences already that hold your interest (already some good platforming experiences here IMO) that are beyond tech demos, I think ultimately, Dreams has to reward the creators with something else other than recognition.
 

Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,211
All interesting points and well articulated. While I do disagree slightly that there aren’t experiences already that hold your interest (already some good platforming experiences here IMO) that are beyond tech demos, I think ultimately, Dreams has to reward the creators with something else other than recognition.
I think the biggest opportunity for monetization in this game is through selling raw assets to creators rather than charging for the games themselves. It's going to be like the iOS App Store where nobody wants to pay for anything, and the quickest way to get your project ignored is to place it behind a paywall.

For example there's some janky jump-rope game that has a fully working Mario model in it. He's got the backflip and the triple jump and the crouch all with perfect physics. People would pay for something like that (even if it had to be re-skinned to avoid copyright issues), rather than potentially spending dozens of hours trying to create a player character that perfectly captures Mario-style movement and physics.

But I think the creators themselves would be happy to pay for models, sounds, animations, engines, and various pre-sets that others have created. I think it will be difficult to balance between the "share & remix" philosophy and the need for people to get something out of what they have made.
 

Kevinception

Member
Jan 18, 2020
148
From what I have seen, a bunch of small/mediocre mini games are exactly what the game is.
hey, Roblox has been around for a decade now. Don’t discount the power of mini game creations. Dreams is pretty much Roblox with a much more modern graphics engine.

All Dreams really needs is PC/phone/tablet access to reach really young gamers because that is where the videogame creation/play community thrives (see Minecraft/Roblox/youtube)
 

ty_hot

Member
Dec 14, 2017
4,180
Few devs made 2 GOTY games in different IPs, congrats for MM. Loved the first LBP and I love Dreams as well. They are amazing.

Yes I am calling Dreams a GOTY in mid February.
 

Lynd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,375
Being able to use others assets will save time, I havn't really started yet, but I'm going to look at how to search for useable assets to make building something faster. Don't need to create everything from scratch at least. Plus seems you unlock assets doing the lessons.
 

Jobbs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,998
hey, Roblox has been around for a decade now. Don’t discount the power of mini game creations. Dreams is pretty much Roblox with a much more modern graphics engine.

All Dreams really needs is PC/phone/tablet access to reach really young gamers because that is where the videogame creation/play community thrives (see Minecraft/Roblox/youtube)
Roblox creators can monetize, and they generate millions of dollars. That's precisely the exact reason Roblox is successful and why it has such good stuff on it. Just FYI.
 

travisbickle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,957
I think the biggest opportunity for monetization in this game is through selling raw assets to creators rather than charging for the games themselves. It's going to be like the iOS App Store where nobody wants to pay for anything, and the quickest way to get your project ignored is to place it behind a paywall.

For example there's some janky jump-rope game that has a fully working Mario model in it. He's got the backflip and the triple jump and the crouch all with perfect physics. People would pay for something like that (even if it had to be re-skinned to avoid copyright issues), rather than potentially spending dozens of hours trying to create a player character that perfectly captures Mario-style movement and physics.

But I think the creators themselves would be happy to pay for models, sounds, animations, engines, and various pre-sets that others have created. I think it will be difficult to balance between the "share & remix" philosophy and the need for people to get something out of what they have made.

You mean the Mario that was made by a player in early access and has been shared, remixed dozens of times and placed in hundreds of levels, including the janky jump-rope level you played. Yeah, I'm sure someone will only make something like that if it's a paid asset.
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
388
thing is, you have to look at what’s the most time consuming with dreams. single assets are fairly easy to create. so i don’t think they will generate most cash. if you seeva very good asset, you can always try recreating it. nah the hardest part is assembling while keeping good quality. to me whenever monetization comes into place, larger experiences will be the ones selling the most.

we discussed that earlier, but having dreams preinstalled on ps5s (avoiding the original paywall) and directly integrated to psStore could be a blast.

if i knew i could create a 2.99 $ game that could reach out to 30 million players, only 0.1% of which would buy it, generating around 900k$ revenue, half of it going back to sony/MM, you could be certain i would drop my current job and go work full time on it.
 

Ravage

Member
Oct 31, 2017
426
thing is, you have to look at what’s the most time consuming with dreams. single assets are fairly easy to create. so i don’t think they will generate most cash. if you seeva very good asset, you can always try recreating it. nah the hardest part is assembling while keeping good quality. to me whenever monetization comes into place, larger experiences will be the ones selling the most.

we discussed that earlier, but having dreams preinstalled on ps5s (avoiding the original paywall) and directly integrated to psStore could be a blast.

if i knew i could create a 2.99 $ game that could reach out to 30 million players, only 0.1% of which would buy it, generating around 900k$ revenue, half of it going back to sony/MM, you could be certain i would drop my current job and go work full time on it.
I have something similar in mind but with a different execution.

1. Revive the PS+ Instant Game Collection initiative but with a focus on live community-focused games.
2. Add Dreams (along with TLOU2 MP, GT Sport, Predator, etc) i.e. permanent access for all Plus members.
3. Highlight best creations of the month in the monthly Plus videos and add quick access icons on the homescreen.
4. Sony remunerates the creators based on some metric (playcount, ratings, etc).
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,549
I am surprised by some of the negativity. Monetizing my creations never came to my mind when thinking about getting dreams. :/ It seems like a fairly low barrier of entry way to play around with the idea of building a game (or sculpting or music creation), did not exactly seem professional grade to me.
That's just you. Some people do think about transitioning.
 

MastaKilla88

Member
Feb 5, 2020
13
just bought this game out of pure curiosity and boredom. And I guess to support a pretty cool dev team. Let’s see what’s going on, won’t create but will play!
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,024
NJ
I think the biggest opportunity for monetization in this game is through selling raw assets to creators rather than charging for the games themselves. It's going to be like the iOS App Store where nobody wants to pay for anything, and the quickest way to get your project ignored is to place it behind a paywall.

For example there's some janky jump-rope game that has a fully working Mario model in it. He's got the backflip and the triple jump and the crouch all with perfect physics. People would pay for something like that (even if it had to be re-skinned to avoid copyright issues), rather than potentially spending dozens of hours trying to create a player character that perfectly captures Mario-style movement and physics.

But I think the creators themselves would be happy to pay for models, sounds, animations, engines, and various pre-sets that others have created. I think it will be difficult to balance between the "share & remix" philosophy and the need for people to get something out of what they have made.
Yeah I played it and the first thing I posted afterwards was, “I hope he shares this guy”. I’m not very artistic but give me the blocks and even I can be creative.
 

ArmGunar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,133
Gameblog.fr : 9/10


In the cons, they put Art’s Dream 🤦🏻‍♂️
 

travisbickle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,957
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Pariah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,219
Gameblog.fr : 9/10


In the cons, they put Art’s Dream 🤦🏻‍♂️
Due to its short length, not because of any inherent problem with it (though it's also mentioned that it lacks a bit of cohesiveness).