Dragon Quest XII development preparations are underway (UPDATE: DQ11 team recruiting for new HD title)

Vena

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Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I think even you calling it a mess of massive proportions is incredibly OTT. Not to mention this narrative of the Switch port being done in response to 'poor' western sales, despite the fact that the Switch port was announced at the same time as the 3DS and PS4 versions.
I didn't say this. Where did you read this in my comment? I said they've had to make the game three times over now to salvage an albatross of a project, not that the Switch was greenlit to salvage western sales. I only said western marketing has been kicked off as if doing a "do-over". Which, I don't think you can actually argue since the original marketing was comical to non-existent.

I'm genuinely curious, has Square Enix ever gone on record to say that Dragon Quest's performance in Japan or NA/Europe was below expectations?
The series has declined significantly entry over entry, despite more platforms and a higher budget.

Hell, where are you getting this idea that they had insanely high expectations for it in the first place? Simply because they developed it for PS4? This is the sort of lazy commentary that I saw way too much of in Monster Hunter World discussions after the initial reveal.
High expectations for DQ. This is normal. They had expectations for it to perform like a DQ title but market realities for the PS4 showed this would not be possible. They likely had high expectations for the PS4 initially, otherwise you don't greenlit a DQ project for a platform. As market realities set in, they changed course and added more platforms.
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,409
I'd say more than 3 times. The old Masahiro Sakurai piece where he interviews Yuji Horii, has them describing it feeling like making 4 versions of DQ11 across 3 systems (PS4, 3DS, NX). Something I think people forget is they had make 2 sets of assets for the 3DS version and make sure everything works correctly in both 2D and 3D. On top of that, the 3DS version has a lot of additional content that is not available in the PS4 version. Nearly everything you see coming to the Switch version was in the 3DS version.

Keeping it simple with the 4 versions there. That isn't getting into the international versions being on later versions of UE4 and leaving the original JP release in the dust and unable to get the patches it needs to fix all the bugs.
 

JaredG

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May 17, 2018
1,657
The series has declined significantly entry over entry, despite more platforms and a higher budget.
What are you talking about? DQIX was the first game in the series to sell over 5 million copies. DQX was a Japan-exclusive MMO and can't really be compared to the others, and DQXI has already surpassed 4 million as of last November (3.2 million in Japan, which is pretty much on par with other entries besides IX). That's not that significant of a decline, and once the Switch port releases it should easily become the best-selling title in the series.
 
Nov 23, 2017
3,948
I didn't say this. Where did you read this in my comment? I said they've had to make the game three times over now to salvage an albatross of a project, not that the Switch was greenlit to salvage western sales. I only said western marketing has been kicked off as if doing a "do-over". Which, I don't think you can actually argue since the original marketing was comical to non-existent.



The series has declined significantly entry over entry, despite more platforms and a higher budget.



High expectations for DQ. This is normal. They had expectations for it to perform like a DQ title but market realities for the PS4 showed this would not be possible. They likely had high expectations for the PS4 initially, otherwise you don't greenlit a DQ project for a platform. As market realities set in, they changed course and added more platforms.
DQXI selling as much as VIII is "significant decline" in what reality
 

Nanashrew

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Oct 25, 2017
4,409
If you want to discuss portable games successes, one is a game out at a platform's height vs. game out as 3ds was dying and wasn't even out yet on a platform at its height like the switch but sure compare apples and oranges
I mean, that's pretty much Vena's point, Square's failure to read the market. And release timing has just as much to do with reading the market, because bad timing can mess up a lot of potential sales.

And to add to all this, from a handheld perspective, they nearly missed an entire generation without a new mainline DQ title.
 
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mazi

mazi

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Oct 27, 2017
28,577
If any one thinks that SE is going to go through the same salvage operation with DQXII as they've had to do with DQXI, and end up making the game about three times over, I have a bridge to sell you.

DQXI was a disaster of insanely high market expectations vs. the reality to which the game launched.

DQXI started as an HD project that, in the course of development, found itself entering an almost completely collapsed market, had to get a 3DS co-game made to salvage the sales potential of the title, and still ended up down significantly from a previous entry on *one* platform. They've since tried to play it up for the west to mediocre sales, and finally made *yet another* significant port/title upgrade for *yet another* launch with an almost completely redone marketing campaign as if the game were coming out for the first time.

Unmitigated disaster is overkill but this was a mess of massive proportions that they've been trying to salvage for the entire generation.
very well said.

If i'm SE might as well, Switch people would buy the game regardless if it's late port or not and it might force the people on fence to buy the PS4/5 version day one. I think Switch users are a prime target for double dip money if you ask me, audience are used to late ports, there's the incentive of handheld, and most first party games doesn't depreciate it's value so they are ok with $60 even on late ones. Again this is just, if i'm SE
that's not gonna work. they would want a huge launch for a new mainline title, ps4/ps5 won't give them that in japan. the situation with XI and XI S is completely different and not applicable here at all.


Wouldnt it be better to make a DQ XII targeting the switch, port it to PS4/PS5, and then, when PS5 install base is bigger, make a DQ XIII for it? Maybe releasing a downport for Switch 2 a la XI
you're assuming ps5 will ever be big enough in japan to support a mainline DQ game on its own. if ps4 couldn't do it and we consider the declining home console market there, that'll never be the case.


If you want to discuss portable games successes, one is a game out at a platform's height vs. game out as 3ds was dying and wasn't even out yet on a platform at its height like the switch but sure compare apples and oranges
the point is if they hadn't gone against the tradition of targeting the most popular platform in japan for 11 and made it a 3DS game, they would have been able to release 11 much sooner at the height of 3DS's popularity, be able to release it in the west as well, and we'd now be either close to or a year away from 12 on switch/ps4.
making 11 the way they did was the result of a huge misread of the market by all accounts. there's no way to deny that. they've had to spend 2 years trying to salvage the project, time that could have been spent on 12 if they had just gone with 3DS for 11 and be able to release it in 2015 or 16.
obviously i'm not mad at how things turned out since 11 ended up being a fantastic looking game, but i have no doubt that they know they made a mistake.
 
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ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,653
620k is overshooting if it's just subtracting JP sellthrough from global shipments. Which is what I suspect is being done.

The reality is likely 500k or less.
I always said <500K was for the west since its ludicrous to think they sold less than 200k copies in the rest of Asia (and whatever's left in japan)
 

Jaal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
204
No doubt they are aiming for the Ps5/Pc and maybe Xbox crowd, like every japanese major titles. Then downport DQ on the Switch2 where people have zero problem to pay old games at full price.

Downsizing the scope and the graphic of a game to follow a shrinking market and a underpowered handheld its just a delusional dream.
 

Bonejack

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Oct 27, 2017
6,961
Downsizing the scope and the graphic of a game to follow a shrinking market and a underpowered handheld its just a delusional dream.
Is it? Please explain DQ8 PS2 -> DQ9 DS then.

E: Also, you're aware that home consoles are the actual shrinking market in Japan? Where the game still sells multiple millions compared to the west?
 
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mazi

mazi

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Oct 27, 2017
28,577
No doubt they are aiming for the Ps5/Pc and maybe Xbox crowd, like every japanese major titles. Then downport DQ on the Switch2 where people have zero problem to pay old games at full price.

Downsizing the scope and the graphic of a game to follow a shrinking market and a underpowered handheld its just a delusional dream.
that makes 0 sense when the biggest market for the game is japan and the home console market is so small there. they tried once with ps4 to appeal to the western market, it didn't really work.

Orchestra and a talking protagonist please.
Horii said in an interview before 11's release that a talking protagonist will never happen in a mainline DQ game.
 

Spiegel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
160
that makes 0 sense when the biggest market for the game is japan and the home console market is so small there. they tried once with ps4 to appeal to the western market, it didn't really work.


Horii said in an interview before 11's release that a talking protagonist will never happen in a mainline DQ game.
They tried nothing. Very late port released at one of the worst times of the year and with no noticeable marketing

It seems like they will try with DQXII with the mention of worldwide audience though
 

Dust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,672
People go again into pointless console wars, while this will be on probably everything relevant just downscaled/upscaled If needed.

They will also might take double dip route again, question being who gets the vanilla version first.

Also put me in the shake up camp, give DQXII something ala' FF12's gambit system.
 
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mazi

mazi

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Oct 27, 2017
28,577
They tried nothing. Very late port released at one of the worst times of the year and with no noticeable marketing

It seems like they will try with DQXII with the mention of worldwide audience though
whatever they want to try in the west has to be an extension of what they do in japan. DQ games on average sell ~4 million in japan, and (if they're lucky) 1 million outside japan. focusing on ps5 for 12 will be a weird move if ps4 wasn't able to sell 2 million copies of the previous game.
it's just much easier to make a game for the lower specced system and then up-port to the next gen console (and PC when localized) than the other way around.
 

Hate

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Oct 26, 2017
4,520
Personally I just want them to go all in on next gen. Make it Switch pro exclusive or something just to be able to downport it.

What I think will actually happen is that they’re looking at DQXI S sales as an indicator on the scope of their next title. Do well and they’ll hold back and it’ll just be DQXI again with a different story. Do sub par and they’ll put all the bells and whistles. One advantage of holding back for Switch it will probably remove all the complaints I have for the console version which were framerate, resolution and draw distance. Maybe remove battle transitions as well.
 

Bonejack

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Oct 27, 2017
6,961
They tried nothing. Very late port released at one of the worst times of the year and with no noticeable marketing

It seems like they will try with DQXII with the mention of worldwide audience though
I'd agure they tried, because they broke out of their principles for the DQ mainline games. Missed the peak for 3DS, launched on PS4 way too early in the systems lifetime, just because of the hope for more western appeal.
And i'd also agure that with DQXI, they actually tried a *second* time. Because let's remember that DQ8 released during the peak times of PS2, and even came with a demo for FF XII in America.

Don't think SQEX's lack of ability, or lack of interest in actually promoting the series outside of Japan is a valid excuse for saying they didn't try.

They will also might take double dip route again, question being who gets the vanilla version first.

Also put me in the shake up camp, give DQXII something ala' FF12's gambit system.
Double dip route is said so easily ... you should remember that they effectively had to develop DQXI three times. It's not really SQEX only adding some more stuff to the Switch version.

It's been said in the thread already, but this isn't a viable take on development, at all. No matter how successful the Switch version will be.

About changes to the battle system, they should carefully think about doing this, as it might have them lose the almost "guaranteed" success mainline DQ games have in Japan.
 

Oregano

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,005
They tried nothing. Very late port released at one of the worst times of the year and with no noticeable marketing

It seems like they will try with DQXII with the mention of worldwide audience though
Late port because they updated the engine(basically a remaster was their words), made major UI changes, added content and recorded VA. It was a bigger localisation project than most games get.
 

Spiegel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
160
Late port because they updated the engine(basically a remaster was their words), made major UI changes, added content and recorded VA. It was a bigger localisation project than most games get.
Yes, they added some things but that's not pushing the game, and adding VA is not something they should have to do, an RPG game from a major RPG company is expected to have some VA.

The only time DQ truly had major push outside of Japan was with DQIX and that was thanks to Nintendo. I would prefer if S-E released the next DQ as an exclusive (Nintendo or Sony I don't really care) if that would mean that the game would get the same amount of marketing push as DQIX got thanks to one of the first parties.
 

fiendcode

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Oct 26, 2017
12,505
Yes, they added some things but that's not pushing the game, and adding VA is not something they should have to do, an RPG game from a major RPG company is expected to have some VA.

The only time DQ truly had major push outside of Japan was with DQIX and that was thanks to Nintendo. I would prefer if S-E released the next DQ as an exclusive (Nintendo or Sony I don't really care) if that would mean that the game would get the same amount of marketing push as DQIX got thanks to one of the first parties.
Well in that case the only real option is Nintendo. How much investment has Sony ever thrown behind DQ overseas?
 
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mazi

mazi

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Oct 27, 2017
28,577
Well in that case the only real option is Nintendo. How much investment has Sony ever thrown behind DQ overseas?
yeah, there's really no contest. nintendo has done a lot over the years to help with the series' popularity outside japan. they've published a large amount of DQ games, all the way back to the first game on the NES.

1986 - Dragon Warrior (NES)
2010 - Dragon Quest IX (DS)
2011 - Dragon Quest VI: Realms of Revelation (DS)
2011 - Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 2 (DS)
2016 - Dragon Quest VII: Fragments of the Forgotten Past (3DS)
2017 - Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King (3DS)
2018 - Dragon Quest Builders (Switch)
2019 - Dragon Quest Builders 2 (Switch)
2019 - Dragon Quest XI S: Echoes of an Elusive Age - Definitive Edition (Switch)
 

CaviarMeths

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Oct 25, 2017
7,511
Western Canada
Considering that DQXI had PS4 as the lead platform and is being ported full-fat to Switch with seemingly no compromises at all, I'm not sure I'm understanding the concern about a potential Switch/Switch 2 version "holding back" a PS4/PS5 version.

Anyway, DQXII will be Switch 2/PS5 or Switch/PS5 depending on how far off its release is with a late PC port.
 

Philippo

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Oct 28, 2017
2,490
Milan, Italy
All this talk about how SE managed DQXI is very interesting to me.

Assuming that DQXII will be done in UE4 and will be in a similar vein to XI without going too much bigger in scope or budget, wouldn't developing it from day one for PS4/5/Switch/PC be the best option to cover most bases and assure solid sales across the world? Of course this includes actually having a decent marketing campaign and a well planned launch.
 
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mazi

mazi

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Oct 27, 2017
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Considering that DQXI had PS4 as the lead platform and is being ported full-fat to Switch with seemingly no compromises at all, I'm not sure I'm understanding the concern about a potential Switch/Switch 2 version "holding back" a PS4/PS5 version.
if they've just wrapped up pre-production, there's no way the game is coming out sooner than 2 or 3 years, which kinda eliminates the option for a ps4 version. that leaves ps5. there are currently games coming to ps4/switch at the same time but for most of them, the switch version isn't really a priority and the sacrifices are too much, which is understandable cuz their main focus is other platforms. the power gap between switch and ps4/xbo is already a lot which is why we're seeing games like CTR/MK11/doom come to the switch at the expense of lower fidelity/resolution/fps. that gap is going to be much larger if a game wants to target PS5 and then also have a good-looking switch version. to me it seems like for a series like DQ, where japan is the biggest market, where handhelds are dominant and where the home console market has been on a downward decline for years, it makes way more sense to just make a switch game but at the same time release a way prettier (4K 60FPS) for PS5, rather that go the route that western devs [understandably] go which is make a game for the more powerful hardware and then figure out a way to also release it on switch if they want.

Assuming that DQXII will be done in UE4 and will be in a similar vein to XI without going too much bigger in scope or budget, wouldn't developing it from day one for PS4/5/Switch/PC be the best option to cover most bases and assure solid sales across the world? Of course this includes actually having a decent marketing campaign and a well planned launch.
i assume 12 will be made in UE4 and its scope will be similar to 11. if that's the case and considering it'll be released in a few years when ps5 has been on the market for a year or two and the switch has a gigantic userbase in japan, it makes sense to me to launch on switch/ps5 and then add PC to the platforms when they localize the game for the west.
 
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Stygr

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Oct 26, 2017
7,326
Maybe next time they should release DQXII in Q1-Q2 instead of putting the game in the beginning of September.
 

Philippo

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Oct 28, 2017
2,490
Milan, Italy
i assume 12 will be made in UE4 and its scope will be similar to 11. if that's the case and considering it'll be released in a few years when ps5 has been on the market for a year or two and the switch has a gigantic userbase in japan, it makes sense to me to launch on switch/ps5 and then add PC to the platforms when they localize the game for the west.
I assumed this would come in Early 2021 considering the time it took to make XI and now with reused assets and such.
Yeah you are right they could skip PS4 in favour of PS5/ Switch, but a lot of JP games released on PS3 even in 2016.

Anything else SE could do (outside of the game's quality) to secure good sales in the West and Japan?
 

KtSlime

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Oct 25, 2017
4,450
Tokyo
SE is going to want to avoid a repeat of 11 which took too long, was too expensive, and sold way below expectations. The will release it on platforms with large installbases in Japan, which will probably be Switch and PS4.
 
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mazi

mazi

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Oct 27, 2017
28,577
Anything else SE could do (outside of the game's quality) to secure good sales in the West and Japan?
i think over the years they've kinda shown that they're incapable of really marketing DQ well outside of japan. honestly i don't know how feasible it is, but assuming it's a ps5/switch game i think they need to also get some of that sony marketing involved as well. i don't know if both sony and nintendo would be willing to market different versions of the same game, but it seems like nintendo's marketing for DQ is pretty good so if they could also get sony involved for the PS version i assume that'll help.

SE is going to want to avoid a repeat of 11 which took too long, was too expensive, and sold way below expectations. The will release it on platforms with large installbases in Japan, which will probably be Switch and PS4.
while they do always go for the largest userbases, they've never put a mainline title on a platform that has its successor on the market, specially since they love doing those hardware bundles and stuff. assuming the game comes out in 2021 or 2022, ps4 will be on it's way out with, maybe even discontinued. i think they'll just go for ps5 at that point, just to give people (specially western fans) a better looking version to look forward to.

edit: nevermind, 6 came out on SNES a year after PS1 launched and 7 came out on PS1 a few months after PS2 launched.

Is it confirmed the game is underperformed?
considering how much extra stuff they've done for the game (adding a 3DS version, improving it for the localized version including a pc port, putting so much into an expanded version only two years after release), and it being such a massive high budget game compared to the last one, i think it's safe to say they expected more.
 
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KtSlime

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Oct 25, 2017
4,450
Tokyo
Is it confirmed the game is underperformed?
Well it's the lowest selling entry in 30 years, and all the business analysts believed it would be the best selling with over 5 million sales in Japan alone. Regardless of whatever they say to make it okay with investors, it was a disappointment. It's not even over yet, since they have a 4th version to try and recover this trainwreck coming out for Switch this fall.

while they do always go for the largest userbases, they've never put a mainline title on a platform that has its successor on the market, specially since they love doing those hardware bundles and stuff. assuming the game comes out in 2021 or 2022, ps4 will be on it's way out with, maybe even discontinued. i think they'll just go for ps5 at that point, just to give people (specially western fans) a better looking version to look forward to.
Usually they like to release a few months before the successor is out, in the case of DQ7 it came out a few months after the PS2 was out, also 11 came out a few months after Switch was out. I had to double check 10, but it came out for Wii three months before Wii U was released. It's common for them to be right at the end, so if the Switch's end of life is in 3 years, it could easily be on it - and would make most sense for install base. If they are targeting Switch, might as well have a PS4 version (which the PS5 will be compatible with) as well.
 
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famikon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,604
ベラルーシ
Is it confirmed the game is underperformed?
this is what they said after launch in Japan:
On July 29, we released “DRAGON QUEST XI: Echoes of an Elusive Age,” which has generated a great customer response and garnered praise for its contents. We have seen stronger sales of the PlayStation®4 version than the NINTENDO 3DS version, but given the installed base, we have high hopes for growth in sales of the NINTENDO 3DS version going forward as well.
 

Isayas

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Jun 10, 2018
1,673
I am one of those DQ fans that think this game can't ever appeal to a westerner who doesn't like JRPGs because that ship has sail. No amount of marketing or anything can save this.
 
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mazi

mazi

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Oct 27, 2017
28,577
I am one of those DQ fans that think this game can't ever appeal to a westerner who doesn't like JRPGs because that ship has sail. No amount of marketing or anything can save this.
i think the same. it's just a series where the original creators have a massive amount of control over the IP, way more than the publisher, and the creator just seems to really want things to stay the same and mostly cares about the game's appeal in japan, so it really doesn't matter how big SE wants the series to become worldwide. in order to really take it to the next level outside of japan things have to change massively but it's clear that Horii doesn't want that.
and i really don't see what's wrong with that. not everything has to have worldwide appeal. the games doing 4 or 5 million in japan and ~1 million in the west can be good enough. not everything has to change in order to reach the widest possible audience.
 

Isayas

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Jun 10, 2018
1,673
You are not alone, I also don't believe it will ever appeal there.
Yep I also think FFVII is the reason for this as well. Despite FFVII is my 2nd favorite game ever it just ruined the chance. I can be hella wrong about this but it is what I feel.

i think the same. it's just a series where the original creators have a massive amount of control over the IP, way more than the publisher, and the creator just seems to really want things to stay the same and mostly cares about the game's appeal in japan, so it really doesn't matter how big SE wants the series to become worldwide. in order to really take it to the next level outside of japan things have to change massively but it's clear that Horii doesn't want that.
and i really don't see what's wrong with that. not everything has to have worldwide appeal. the games doing 4 or 5 million in japan and ~1 million in the west can be good enough. not everything has to change in order to reach the widest possible audience.
Yea I think so as well and I don't want the series to drastically change either. That is why I love both FF and DQ but I feel DQ is significantly better over FF. DQ gives me so much feels.