Digital Foundry: Final Fantasy 15 on Stadia is a Technical Disappointment - Stadia vs Xbox One X Comparison

piratethingy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
519
All of that is still true. Some people get confused and imagined that developers would be able to dedicate several blades per user, but it was never something like that.
No, none of it is true, and none of it is the same as the very real potential uses you mention. I specifically was talking about people who were not aware of the specifics and were running with crazy ideas of unlimited or practically unlimited computing resources for each individual user.
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,242
If it's a Linux distribution perhaps the issue is Graphics Drivers?

AMD have had a dubious history with GPU drivers on Linux.
 

Phamit

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Oct 26, 2017
1,423
I wonder if googles documentation, dev tools and drivers aren't as advanced as they should be, resulting in unimpressive ports.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,324
If it's a Linux distribution perhaps the issue is Graphics Drivers?

AMD have had a dubious history with GPU drivers on Linux.
Considering the hardware that Stadia is supposed have, it still doesn’t add up. It should be cranking out 4x the numbers at the very least. Immature drivers should not result in a 75% drop in performance.

The only thought I have is that maybe developers are actually paying Google a portion of their sales based on the hardware they’re using. At this point in time, I can’t think of any other explanation that makes sense. Say, if you use a full blade it’s 40% of the sale, and if you use half a blade it’s 20% of the sale going to Google.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
2,367
No, none of it is true, and none of it is the same as the very real potential uses you mention. I specifically was talking about people who were not aware of the specifics and were running with crazy ideas of unlimited or practically unlimited computing resources for each individual user.
I think we can all raise an eye brow when anyone mentions "unlimited power". I didn't saw a lot of people like that, just a few saying developers would be able to dedicate 1, 2, 3, etc Stadia blades per user.
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,242
Considering the hardware that Stadia is supposed have, it still doesn’t add up. It should be cranking out 4x the numbers at the very least. Immature drivers should not result in a 75% drop in performance.

The only thought I have is that maybe developers are actually paying Google a portion of their sales based on the hardware they’re using. At this point in time, I can’t think of any other explanation that makes sense. Say, if you use a full blade it’s 40% of the sale, and if you use half a blade it’s 20% of the sale going to Google.
Honestly that sounds like Google were falsely marketing to their users if they're incentivising publishers to use less resources to increase revenue.

Googling about drivefs It seems like Rise of the Tomb Raider has a native Linux port:


Performance doesn't seem terrible but I haven't dug up a Windows comparison.

It's such a strange thing this lack of performance. Hopefully some journalists are aware and bring it up at an interview.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,092
If it's a Linux distribution perhaps the issue is Graphics Drivers?

AMD have had a dubious history with GPU drivers on Linux.
Except, this is Google, not just some random Linux distribution where consumer gaming is usually seen more as a novelty than a primary feature - in theory AMD would have gone out of their way to customize the driver for their own custom GPU for Stadia, same as if Sony or Microsoft were having performance issues with their GPUs.
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,525
I think one of the bigger advantages of XCloud is seemingly becoming a problem for Stadia; the ease of porting games for dev's. Although it's probably somewhat hyperbolic, due to the hardware similarities of the current XCloud instances to Xbox hardware, making your game available is said to be almost like changing some options in dev's build process.

With Stadia it seems that dev's either don't have the full 10.7TF available, or haven't set aside the budget to fully port their games to make use of this power.
One thing too, is there is some possibility xCloud will actually enhance games when they transition to next gen. On some AMD slides a while back, they were talking about chips that were doing partial raytracing for consumer hardware (Xbox, PSV and PC) and full scene RT in the cloud. So far xCloud is the only known future provider of cloud games with RT (and by extension, this should include Sony too, considering their partnership)

So stadia is here struggling to match visual fidelity with current end of gen games while we may be seeing full scene RT for any game that a developer decides to enable it for on their direct competitor...
 

Belthazar90

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Jun 3, 2019
440
The good news is this being a failure will probably scare other companies (MS/Sony) away from going full streaming for at least another decade.
 

TheExecutive

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
892
I’d place my bet on immature software stack and maybe a dash of dev deadlines/resources. Hardware can easily be hobbled by a bad driver here or a suboptimal library there. There’s a lot more to floating a good new closed platform, in terms of performance, than getting the hardware right.
i mean it could be anything really but it is always more likely software than hardware. There could be some architecture issues too- it’s a new platform. I mean google knows how to set up a data center but do they know how to build a gaming platform on top of that?

I am sure these issues will get worked out but my ISP cap isn’t going to allow this so I will be on the sideline.
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,138
I wonder if googles documentation, dev tools and drivers aren't as advanced as they should be, resulting in unimpressive ports.
Even if this is the case, they should have had at least ONE game running rock solid true 4K to show it could be done... a showcase game... but nOPE
Its embarrassing, especially in that Google knows Stadias early adopters are going to be tech savvy prople who can tell 4K from 1080p.
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,601
Streaming is just not ready. Don’t know why people want to push it so much. Why not instead push for instant downloads of any game? Download and delete instantly any game you want? That’s a far better technology
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,092
Streaming is just not ready. Don’t know why people want to push it so much. Why not instead push for instant downloads of any game? Download and delete instantly any game you want? That’s a far better technology
Streaming is ready. The streaming tech works great, latency generally isn't noticeable, compression artifacts only tend to get bad when you are experiencing an internet blip. This "technical disappointment" could have happened on any console.

Also, the "instant download" tech you want doesn't exist and isn't physically possible...except through streaming. I mean, how are you going to download 80GB in an instant? Buy a streaming game though, you are instantly playing it. In fact, Microsoft is rumored to be planning that for their next-gen consoles, when you buy a game it streams through xCloud until the game is downloaded so you don't have to wait.

Even if this is the case, they should have had at least ONE game running rock solid true 4K to show it could be done... a showcase game... but nOPE
Its embarrassing, especially in that Google knows Stadias early adopters are going to be tech savvy prople who can tell 4K from 1080p.
There are a few. Heck, they gave everyone one, Samurai Showdown, solid 4k/60.
 

Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,257
Also, the "instant download" tech you want doesn't exist and isn't physically possible...except through streaming. I mean, how are you going to download 80GB in an instant? Buy a streaming game though, you are instantly playing it. In fact, Microsoft is rumored to be planning that for their next-gen consoles, when you buy a game it streams through xCloud until the game is downloaded so you don't have to wait.
I have Gigabit FIOS. I download it once, it downloads fairly quickly, I don't do it again. Stadia, on the other hand, will suck for a long time.
 

Bjones

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Oct 30, 2017
4,858
It’s not really surprising, these games are running on vm server instances. Games like this one had issues on high end dedicated PCs.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,163
Seattle
Man I really want some answers on the performance topic of Stadia lol

Best guesses are some people are having trouble with Vulkan or some games are getting way less resources dedicated (Despite google claiming in an interview they weren’t planning on splitting instances.)

Toss up to me.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,163
Seattle
It’s not really surprising, these games are running on vm server instances. Games like this one had issues on high end dedicated PCs.
Google has essentially claimed that Stadia are dedicated rack PCs. However the underlying architecture including GPU support virtualization (not all GPUs do.). So despite Google claiming they aren’t running Stadia using hardware virtualization it’s possible they ended up doing it. It was one of those “no we aren’t planning on splitting instances” kinda of comments IIrC.
 

Bjones

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Oct 30, 2017
4,858
Google has essentially claimed that Stadia are dedicated rack PCs. However the underlying architecture including GPU support virtualization (not all GPUs do.). So despite Google claiming they aren’t running Stadia using hardware virtualization it’s possible they ended up doing it. It was one of those “no we aren’t planning on splitting instances” kinda of comments IIrC.
They were probably saying “ stadia “ has dedicated rack space As in being only used for stadia, but it’s most definitely instanced. The number of users would just be too high for it not to be.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,163
Seattle
They were probably saying “ stadia “ has dedicated rack space As in being only used for stadia, but it’s most definitely instanced. The number of users would just be too high for it not to be.
No they weren’t. I mean maybe more than one set per rack but they have a dedicated CPU/GpU/RAM set w/ dedicated busses. I’m sure the disks are mounted on the fly and all that and “virtualization” is happening but they claimed they weren’t doing hardware virtualization of the main components.

It’s basically how they’ve advertised it too.
 

itchi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,178
The load time is an improvement but still kinda disappointing. Wonder how a PC with an SSD compares.
 

ADS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
276
I'm out of the loop on Stadia but I thought the whole concept was next gen performance (10 tf+)? What's the point if it's not even as good as current gen consoles?
 

Paz

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,464
Brisbane, Australia
At a base level I'm impressed with the way Stadia actually manages to function properly, seems like it's the first cloud based service to really clear that bar, but everything else seems to be going very wrong.

It wasn't so long ago that some people were hyped for this thing to basically be a preview of next gen heh https://www.resetera.com/threads/stadia-in-two-months-you-can-essentially-try-out-next-gen-consoles-will-you-be-there.142450/

Also, that negative latency thread from a while back is looking pretty funny now, the hardware can seemingly barely keep pace with old consoles and the concepts being discussed in that thread like simulating multiple possibilities for each frame just sounds absurd now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
981
the potential is still there, stadia just needs an exclusive killer app that can't be done elsewhere
some crazy single-shard MMO sandbox thing like what Everquest Next was hyped as before it died
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,751
Chicago
I think we can all raise an eye brow when anyone mentions "unlimited power". I didn't saw a lot of people like that, just a few saying developers would be able to dedicate 1, 2, 3, etc Stadia blades per user.
Are you complaining about posters that will remain unnamed that may have, um, overestimated Stadia's capabilities before launch?

Remember "negative latency"? I remember negative latency.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
2,367
Are you complaining about posters that will remain unnamed that may have, um, overestimated Stadia's capabilities before launch?

Remember "negative latency"? I remember negative latency.
I don't remember the names. On regards to negative latency, it was described by Google as something that would not be available at launch, so it's not fair to complain about not being there at launch.
 
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senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,397
At a base level I'm impressed with the way Stadia actually manages to function properly, seems like it's the first cloud based service to really clear that bar, but everything else seems to be going very wrong.

It wasn't so long ago that some people were hyped for this thing to basically be a preview of next gen heh https://www.resetera.com/threads/stadia-in-two-months-you-can-essentially-try-out-next-gen-consoles-will-you-be-there.142450/

Also, that negative latency thread from a while back is looking pretty funny now, the hardware can seemingly barely keep pace with old consoles and the concepts being discussed in that thread like simulating multiple possibilities for each frame just sounds absurd now.
The optimistic posts in that thread aged about as well as a dirty diaper in direct sunlight.

“Cyberpunk 2077 at all Ultra settings in 4k60 at launch”. Oof
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
12,644
what a shitty launch for the new console its starting to remind me of the Wii U third party ports, except the Stadia is supposedly much more powerful than current systems
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,324
Streaming is just not ready. Don’t know why people want to push it so much. Why not instead push for instant downloads of any game? Download and delete instantly any game you want? That’s a far better technology
Streaming is ready. GeForce Now works fine. It previously allowed 4K/60 or 1080p/120 for many titles, though that's now been reduced during the beta (keep in mind it's free). It can also use up to 60mbit/s for increased visual fidelity.

Google's offering is simply not up to par.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,170
Even if this is the case, they should have had at least ONE game running rock solid true 4K to show it could be done... a showcase game... but nOPE
Its embarrassing, especially in that Google knows Stadias early adopters are going to be tech savvy prople who can tell 4K from 1080p.
Yes, there's a growing consensus that Stadia needs a game that really shows off why people should be buying Stadia, and right now all it has it some older games that people can already play elsewhere, plus a small set of exclusives that don't appear to have had any impact (in terms of online enthusiasm for the games themselves or for Stadia - it's possible I'm missing some of that, but I really don't see any effect from Gylt).

They should at least have made sure they had something running at 4K/60FPS and with the ability to call itself the definitive edition of that game.

The free stadia experience is going to have to render at 720p or some shit just to give people any reason at all to pay for “4K“ 1080p
There'll still be a difference between the 1080p free tier and 1080p on the paid tier. That difference will mostly just be bitrate, but with the kind of streaming speeds and resolutions Stadia is working at, bitrate matters more than resolution anyway.

At a base level I'm impressed with the way Stadia actually manages to function properly, seems like it's the first cloud based service to really clear that bar, but everything else seems to be going very wrong.
Not sure I'd agree. PlayStation Now works, at least to the extent that Stadia does.

Also, that negative latency thread from a while back is looking pretty funny now, the hardware can seemingly barely keep pace with old consoles and the concepts being discussed in that thread like simulating multiple possibilities for each frame just sounds absurd now.
Yes, Stadia got a few people believing in things that they really should have questioned a bit more. Not just negative latency, but also the economics of games using multiple stacked instances, and the impact of real-time encoding on image quality.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,245
Like most people, I expected the Stadia version to be the best looking one, but Stadia still lets us down once again.
I'm done with FF15 but this is interestingly sad to watch.
Do you actually mean most, or simply many? I never thought for one second that Stadia was going to offer true 4K streaming to "any" device, or that even if it somehow managed that, that it would not be without huge sacrifices. If something as passive as a Blu-ray still can't (well, not so much "can't" but "isn't" normally) be replicated through streaming yet, how would the gaming side have magically been able to leap-frog the requirements now, on top of not having latency issues?
 
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Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
1,831
This remains really irritating, because good quality 4K/60fps streaming exists elsewhere, and Google are just muddying the waters with this upscaled nonsense.

Apologies for the massive image, but here's Gears 5 streaming at 4k/60fps, and it looks pretty damn clean:

 

panda-zebra

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,856
If it's a Linux distribution perhaps the issue is Graphics Drivers?

AMD have had a dubious history with GPU drivers on Linux.
It's everything together- new platform being very early (effectively beta): tools, drivers, hardware firmware, engines, middleware, everything needs tuning. The whole ecosystem and user experience, that's all far from where it needs to be, also. There are all things that can improve over time.

Best guesses are some people are having trouble with Vulkan or some games are getting way less resources dedicated (Despite google claiming in an interview they weren’t planning on splitting instances.)
It's not this. You don't give devs a target spec then late on tell them you're gimping it just because so their games are going to perform worse than expected, that'd be crazy. So no, that's not a best guess, it's more suitable for the NextGen speculation thread as it's about as reliable as any random pastebin posted there ;-)

Streaming is just not ready.
Streaming is ready. Multiple providers already doing it and doing it well, including Google. Stadia is just behind where it needs to be on many levels, but the tech/engineering side of the streaming seems solid.