Digital Foundry: Final Fantasy 15 on Stadia is a Technical Disappointment - Stadia vs Xbox One X Comparison

TheOne

Member
May 25, 2019
712
This has nothing whatsoever to do with streaming. The quality issues are based on the hardware running the game, not the fact that it is streaming. The review mentioned a couple streaming issues, but the majority of it was problems with the graphical effects, rendering framerate and resolutions, not the streaming. Streaming just compounded it - since the game isn't graphically better than home console, you might as well get it on home console unless you are really interested in the portability factor or the improved loading times.
What are you even arguing here? I'm pretty sure that by saying "streaming future ain't quite now", he meant that there's currently no streaming service offering a definitive better experience than dedicated hardware, which is right for now. We can go deep into explanations as to why it's not working the way it should (backbone hardware, graphics settings, latency issues, etc) but it won't change the fact that until they can assuredly offer a better experience all around, or even deliver their promises for that matter then for a shit load of person, current streaming offering isn't enough for them to abandon current model of dedicated PCs and consoles.
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,885
I'm actully so curious as to why games are running worse on stadia. Not that im expecting all hit to hit 4k 60 that's a joke but the hardware those servers run on should easily push this version of the game past the x1x version no?
The games must be ported to Stadia, the servers are not PCs running Windows, so it's clear the first games are not very optimized and raw power can only do so much.
 

sweetmini

Member
Jun 12, 2019
1,304
The games must be ported to Stadia, the servers are not PCs running Windows, so it's clear the first games are not very optimized and raw power can only do so much.
Maybe there are hidden to us factors as well... like limiting the resources consumption for a bigger cut on the game sales income.
 

RaySpencer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,993
I really have been enjoying my time with my Stadia, and I am constantly amazed at how the tech just works. But what the hell, why arent these games running at super mega ultra settings? That was a huge selling feature.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,051
1080p30 with missing graphical features is embarrassing.
The Vulkan API appeared in the Steam database a while ago for FFXV, i guess because they were working on the Stadia version then.
Also shame this isn't using PC's ultra graphics, it would be a good example of showing off Stadia's 10 TF's, but this service is really just a massive disappointment so far, it's hard to get around that.
I have a hunch that Stadia is running games through either Proton or Wine proper. The alternative would be making secret hidden Linux ports of everything and I can't really see that happening.
 

Elven_Star

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,305
"It will do what no PC or console can hope to do."
LOL

This and the "negative input delay" have made Stadia the best joke in a long time. Then again, we live in the Trump era...
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,167
I'm actully so curious as to why games are running worse on stadia. Not that im expecting all hit to hit 4k 60 that's a joke but the hardware those servers run on should easily push this version of the game past the x1x version no?
I think the most likely explanation is limited development resources for a new, unproven, low-userbase platform. There might also be a combination effect with the video compression - developers working on games with lots of fine detail have no motivation to optimise them past the point where the encoder starts compressing that detail away.

Every one of these tech comparisons just makes the decision to launch Stadia Pro first even more bizarre. I mean, yes, Google screwed up almost every aspect of the business model for this thing. But the only thing they're selling *now*, a subscription service with almost no games, just... doesn't DO the thing they're selling.

If devs are struggling to get good benchmarks on the service, why not launch base Stadia first? It's not like Google needs the money. I get trying to beat your competitors to the market, but there's SO many better ways to sell this to potential customers. It's just a profoundly odd decision on their part.
I think that the general consensus on this is correct, and that Google are using Stadia Pro and the temporary need to buy Stadia hardware as a way to limit the userbase to a level that they know they can support.

How many Stradia customers watch DF videos
I guess, at a first approximation, a big percentage of them, perhaps a majority.

DF videos don't appeal to a mainstream crowd, but Stadia isn't a mainstream console. Right now Stadia owners are limited to a group willing to buy into a new video games service, with one of the major initial attractions having been the resolution and framerate. I would guess that group also cares how the games they're playing on Stadia compare to other platforms, and that there's a pretty big overlap between Stadia owners and DF viewers (more so than for any other platform).
 

Eketra

Member
Mar 22, 2018
12
My guess is, power in each cell has to be limited in some way. Optimisation can't account for this kind of underperforming. Why is a totally different question?
 
OP
OP
Box

Box

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,795
Lancashire
I guess, at a first approximation, a big percentage of them, perhaps a majority.
Bloody draft function. I'd reconsidered my point given how early we are in the life of the console. I'd written a couple more lines and swear I deleted them let alone posted the thing. Hazy day off is hazy :p
 

ZSJ

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 21, 2019
607
I love how Stadia claims to be better than consoles, and yet most of it's games run at a resolution the PS3 could output. What a mess.
 

Mindfreak191

Member
Dec 2, 2017
1,263
Seriously, Stadia is a fucking embarrassment....each game that's on their system is severely worse than playing on other systems, I simply cannot find a single good thing about it except maybe that you save HDD space by not having games installed locally. I don't count the "you get to play immediately" point, because honestly, if you have a 300mbit connection it doesn't take that long to download a game (even if it is 80gb), yes you wait 20 minutes longer, but at least you have a far superior version of a two year old game than whatever google advertised.
 

cyrribrae

Member
Jan 21, 2019
1,012
I'm actully so curious as to why games are running worse on stadia. Not that im expecting all hit to hit 4k 60 that's a joke but the hardware those servers run on should easily push this version of the game past the x1x version no?
My guess? These are bad Linux ports. It takes extra work for every game and, realistically, how much effort are you going to put into a port that only a few people are going to play (especially for an old game). Compare that to just streaming from a stream version or directly from console hardware, which competitors do.

I may be wrong or this might just be one aspect, but I think it'd be significant.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,541
I really have been enjoying my time with my Stadia, and I am constantly amazed at how the tech just works. But what the hell, why arent these games running at super mega ultra settings? That was a huge selling feature.
It's more why did Phil Harrison focus on that, for all intents and purposes Stadia is a new platform that developers need to learn. The tools provided to them were probably less than ideal.

Instead focus on the convience factors and give dev time to learn, also clearly label this launch as a beta.

I will probably never go back to playing Destiny on PS4 and if both platforms had the same library I would 100% use Stadia exclusively.

The tech is amazing, the face of the product is terrible. I haven't even seen a single quote or article from Phil since the launch which is incredible in its own right.
 

RaySpencer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,993
It's more why did Phil Harrison focus on that, for all intents and purposes Stadia is a new platform that developers need to learn. The tools provided to them were probably less than ideal.

Instead focus on the convience factors and give dev time to learn, also clearly label this launch as a beta.

I will probably never go back to playing Destiny on PS4 and if both platforms had the same library I would 100% use Stadia exclusively.

The tech is amazing, the face of the product is terrible. I haven't even seen a single quote or article from Phil since the launch which is incredible in its own right.

Yeah, its very clearly a beta or "early access", it aint done.

But im totally with you. I have Destiny 2 on PS4, and I would easily drop it completely to play here, but my friends wont. haha
 

elenarie

Developer at DICE
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
3,189
how ?

my middling gaming laptop can run it better than that and that thing has a GTX 1060 in it ..


The "Stadia promise" has been a pretty big dud so far.
The PS4 OS is based on FreeBSD, which is a Unix based OS. The Stadia OS / shell likely runs either on a Linux based OS or on a BSD based OS. Haven't looked into this personally, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case.

Rendering wise, it makes a lot more sense to start with the PS4 version as a base as it is much closer OS and low level components wise than the Windows version. Additionally, in order to make use of multi CPU and multi GPU environments, games have to be rearchitectured with that in mind as no other systems currently (except Windows, but that is VERY rare) support multi CPU and multi GPU workloads, something that not a lot of companies will do considering the very low Stadia user base.

Just saying something like, it can use the infinite power of the cloud, will not magically make a game do so. Be that for running in 4K or with 745 fps. :p
 

chandoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,259
The PS4 OS is based on FreeBSD, which is a Unix based OS. The Stadia OS / shell likely runs either on a Linux based OS or on a BSD based OS. Haven't looked into this personally, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case.

Rendering wise, it makes a lot more sense to start with the PS4 version as a base as it is much closer OS and low level components wise than the Windows version. Additionally, in order to make use of multi CPU and multi GPU environments, games have to be rearchitectured with that in mind as no other systems currently (except Windows, but that is VERY rare) support multi CPU and multi GPU workloads, something that not a lot of companies will do considering the very low Stadia user base.

Just saying something like, it can use the infinite power of the cloud, will not magically make a game do so. Be that for running in 4K or with 745 fps. :p
But it's still only running at 1080p/30 FPS .... that defeats the point of Stadia and is more in-line with a base PS4, certainly disappointing ..wouldn't you say so ?
 

Mars People

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,849
I dont quite understand why they are comparing Xbone X vs Stadia.
Wouldn't it make way more sense to compared a maxed out PC version vs Stadia?
 

Neilg

Member
Nov 16, 2017
436
I'm actully so curious as to why games are running worse on stadia. Not that im expecting all hit to hit 4k 60 that's a joke but the hardware those servers run on should easily push this version of the game past the x1x version no?
A bad port of anything would run poorly on a 2080ti. Look at any game made in unity on the PS4.

I imagine the documentation and help that's coming from Google to support these ports isn't as strong as what MS and sony provide to developers, and I imagine the developers also have better things for their best programmers to be working on.

Think of how long it takes consoles to really come into their own and push the envelope - last of us 2 & death stranding look very different to launch titles.
Not that I think anyone will ever put in the resources to get that much out of stadia...
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,230
I dont quite understand why they are comparing Xbone X vs Stadia.
Wouldn't it make way more sense to compared a maxed out PC version vs Stadia?
Would it? The Xbox One X is coming out ahead in nearly every comparison. Bringing the PC in would only increase the gap.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
11,432
Stadia is up there with N Gage as one of the worst platform launches of all time.

Fascinating saga to follow
 

Mars People

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,849
Would it? The Xbox One X is coming out ahead in nearly every comparison. Bringing the PC in would only increase the gap.
I simply mean that by its very nature the Stadia version IS a PC version isn't it?
Its running off a google PC.
In my head that should be the standard that the Stadia version should be compared to, not the console versions.

Yes I know the difference would be even bigger, but thats the point isnt it?
Stadia was supposed to match the very best in PC gaming.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,323
I simply mean that by its very nature the Stadia version IS a PC version isn't it?
Its running off a google PC.
In my head that should be the standard that the Stadia version should be compared to, not the console versions.

Yes I know the difference would be even bigger, but thats the point isnt it?
Stadia was supposed to match the very best in PC gaming.
No need for overkill (for lack of a better word).
 

BLASTEROID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
112
Wish we could get some insider info with all these poorly executed ports. What exactly IS the issue here? I could easily see an argument being made for developers/publishers not being willing to spend the time and money it takes to make a proper port given that he player base for Stadia is so small. SquareEnix games are basically all not very well optimized to begin with...

However, with Destiny 2 for example, I'd have expected 4k60FPS since this is essentially their 'flagship title', and they apparently had Stadia devs working on site with them for months.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,541
Well... the pricing was laughable.
The game selection is lacking.
The controller is literally impossible to open up.
It's overheating Chromecasts.
The setup process had missing emails.
The games themselves are running at sub par quality levels.

So... uhm... is there a nice bootup chime?
I can't open up my controller?!?! I should definately return this POS.

Our you can look at the feedback of people like myself (even DF) about how the product itself has great potential, is currently the best streaming product and Google marketing did the most harm by over selling the initial product.

If the library of MS or Sony was available even at the current slightly lower resolutions, I would never use a console again.

The tech is that good, even in it's current state and will hopefully only improve.
 

burgerdog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,521
I simply mean that by its very nature the Stadia version IS a PC version isn't it?
Its running off a google PC.
In my head that should be the standard that the Stadia version should be compared to, not the console versions.

Yes I know the difference would be even bigger, but thats the point isnt it?
Stadia was supposed to match the very best in PC gaming.
I'm not following this stadia thing, but didn't google themselves compare stadia to the xbox x and ps4 pro? Something about teraflops?
 

BLASTEROID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
112
I simply mean that by its very nature the Stadia version IS a PC version isn't it?
Its running off a google PC.
In my head that should be the standard that the Stadia version should be compared to, not the console versions.

Yes I know the difference would be even bigger, but thats the point isnt it?
Stadia was supposed to match the very best in PC gaming.

It's a 'PC' version in that a Stadia instance has specs relative to standard computer hardware. It's not at all a 'PC' version in that the operating system is not Windows, and knowing Google, I am sure there's other hardware and software layer quirks about it that would eventually allow it resource pool, be more elastic/scalable.
 

piratethingy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
517
I'm thinking that not every Stadia game gets access to a full blade. I'd be really interested how they allocate resources to each VM.
I still can’t believe people in pre-launch threads talking about the crazy games we’d see that take advantage of the ability to use three or five or ten blades at once! Unlimited power! Games you couldn’t imagine on other hardware!

Like there was just going to be no limit and no costs associated with allocating as much hardware to your Stadia game as you want.
 

harz-marz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,120
I still can’t believe people in pre-launch threads talking about the crazy games we’d see that take advantage of the ability to use three or five or ten blades at once! Unlimited power! Games you couldn’t imagine on other hardware!

Like there was just going to be no limit and no costs associated with allocating as much hardware to your Stadia game as you want.
I got sucked into believing this hype too.... how wrong I was. Cloud gaming is exciting and still a technical marvel, Stadia has been a huge let down thus far however.
 

Mars People

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,849
I could of sworn in the inital announcements google themselves were comparing Stadia to running off a top of the line PC. In whatever google special computer form that takes.

Maybe I made that up in my head. But that's why I think Stadia should always be compared against the 'best' version of a multi platform game. Ie usually the PC version.

If they actually said Stadia runs at power comparable to an Xbone X, then I am talking bollocks and thats what it should be compared to instead.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,541
I still can’t believe people in pre-launch threads talking about the crazy games we’d see that take advantage of the ability to use three or five or ten blades at once! Unlimited power! Games you couldn’t imagine on other hardware!

Like there was just going to be no limit and no costs associated with allocating as much hardware to your Stadia game as you want.
I had to setup Azure VM's for a class project this semester and was surprised at how expensive it can get.

I think this is why Stadia will not see F2P games any time soon

I could of sworn in the inital announcements google themselves were comparing Stadia to running off a top of the line PC. In whatever google special computer form that takes.

Maybe I made that up in my head. But that's why I think Stadia should always be compared against the 'best' version of a mult platform game. Ie usually the PC version.

If they actually said Stadia runs at power comparable to an Xbone X, then I am talking bollocks and thats what it should be compared to instead.
That was Phil Harrison, easily the biggest liability. Call this this a beta and give realistic early expectations and most of this was curbed
 

Observable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
528
I think one of the bigger advantages of XCloud is seemingly becoming a problem for Stadia; the ease of porting games for dev's. Although it's probably somewhat hyperbolic, due to the hardware similarities of the current XCloud instances to Xbox hardware, making your game available is said to be almost like changing some options in dev's build process.

With Stadia it seems that dev's either don't have the full 10.7TF available, or haven't set aside the budget to fully port their games to make use of this power.
 

BLASTEROID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
112
I could of sworn in the inital announcements google themselves were comparing Stadia to running off a top of the line PC. In whatever google special computer form that takes.

Maybe I made that up in my head. But that's why I think Stadia should always be compared against the 'best' version of a multi platform game. Ie usually the PC version.

If they actually said Stadia runs at power comparable to an Xbone X, then I am talking bollocks and thats what it should be compared to instead.

The Tflops output is supposed to be more than xbone x and ps4 pro combined... which is similar to higher end gaming PC.

The games are obviously not running at anything near this.


If stadia ties with current gen consoles, then it's pointless imo.
 

TheChrisGlass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
615
Los Angeles, CA
I could of sworn in the inital announcements google themselves were comparing Stadia to running off a top of the line PC. In whatever google special computer form that takes.

Maybe I made that up in my head. But that's why I think Stadia should always be compared against the 'best' version of a multi platform game. Ie usually the PC version.

If they actually said Stadia runs at power comparable to an Xbone X, then I am talking bollocks and thats what it should be compared to instead.
You mean where they said that in two years they'd have negative lag?
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,871
Yeah there has to be somethung that is killing performance in these games but this is pathetic and google should be ashamed of themselces with their bullshit promises of 4k.
Datacenters are a terrible way of executing real time games. It's incredibly inefficient. The entire model is completely ass backwards and will never get better.

The virtualization, data center heat and power constraints, other processes that must run, attempts at reducing the devastating latency penalty will never be overcome nor even mitigated well.

People like myself have to keep reminding people every few years but I guess big corporations and the public will never really get it.
 

chromatic9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,491
I'd actually like to see a base PS4 comparison with screenshots and whereabouts the stadia video image quality lands.

Also if there's any games on Stadia higher than 1080p, how much benefit of higher resolutions comes through the video compression in games running 1440p, 2160p for example compared to a console/PC running it at the same res.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,167
I'd actually like to see a base PS4 comparison with screenshots and whereabouts the stadia video image quality lands.

Also if there's any games on Stadia higher than 1080p, how much benefit of higher resolutions comes through the video compression in games running 1440p, 2160p for example compared to a console/PC running it at the same res.
Some of the shots that DF used for their Stadia comparisons with Xbox One X also have very close equivalents from their early Face Offs that included PS4 games, so we can do at least a quick comparison.

Tiny note, the Stadia screenshots are PNG files and PS4 shots are JPG files so might be some slight advantage to Stadia from the format, but overall I would say PS4 is competitive, at least when it comes to image quality. Despite the resolution these are base PS4 screenshots.

PS4 Tomb Raider: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2018/articles/2018-09-11-13-45/PS4_003.jpg
Stadia Tomb Raider: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2019/articles/2019-11-17-18-30/ShadowStadia11.png

PS4 RDR2: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2018/articles/2018-10-25-09-08/PS4_003.jpg
Stadia RDR2: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2019/articles/2019-11-17-18-20/RDRStadia3.png
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
2,350
I still can’t believe people in pre-launch threads talking about the crazy games we’d see that take advantage of the ability to use three or five or ten blades at once! Unlimited power! Games you couldn’t imagine on other hardware!

Like there was just going to be no limit and no costs associated with allocating as much hardware to your Stadia game as you want.
All of that is still true. Some people get confused and imagined that developers would be able to dedicate several blades per user, but it was never something like that. The idea is to either make blades that are already dedicated to a player work together or dedicate one or two blades to a single task and then share that with potentially thousands of players. The fact that we haven't seen games take advantage of this at launch, doesn't say anything at all that we won't see it in the future. We have already seen several developers talking about what is available to them and how they plan to use it.
 

chromatic9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,491
Some of the shots that DF used for their Stadia comparisons with Xbox One X also have very close equivalents from their early Face Offs that included PS4 games, so we can do at least a quick comparison.

Tiny note, the Stadia screenshots are PNG files and PS4 shots are JPG files so might be some slight advantage to Stadia from the format, but overall I would say PS4 is competitive, at least when it comes to image quality. Despite the resolution these are base PS4 screenshots.

PS4 Tomb Raider: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2018/articles/2018-09-11-13-45/PS4_003.jpg
Stadia Tomb Raider: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2019/articles/2019-11-17-18-30/ShadowStadia11.png

PS4 RDR2: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2018/articles/2018-10-25-09-08/PS4_003.jpg
Stadia RDR2: https://d2skuhm0vrry40.cloudfront.net/2019/articles/2019-11-17-18-20/RDRStadia3.png
Thanks.

PS4 Tomb Raider much better actually and RDR2 are very similar, perhaps a blurry AA solution on PS4 helping out Stadia.
 

Slayven

1000% Demon King
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
43,004
People will let a surprising amount slide as long as you come at them half way strike. Marketing is going to dovway more damage to Stadia than performance