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Dangen Entertainment Allegedly Robbing Indie Devs? (Update: Medium article with more info; Dangen responds; 2nd Medium article -- See Threadmarks)

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
I get your point but "good faith" stops being worth a damn when you suck at your job and your ineptitude is hurting both your business and that of your partners.

I'd have to go back and read Dangen's rebuttal to make sure but I'm pretty sure they glossed over and/or made no attempt to address a ton of the accusations of incompetency directed at Nayan, including Judd wanting to replace him.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,198
it’s fairly clear Nyan has acted in good faith and made effort to make up directly for his mistakes
So I think the question of “good faith” or not is a bit of a weird framing when the accusation is mostly negligence rather than outright malicious behavior on his part.

But either way, their response really didn’t do this thing you’re claiming? Because very little was said to actually disprove anything, and many incidents were ignored. At most, it showed they sent some occasional messages. Lots of stuff around Nayan’s actions or lack of them, Judd suddenly turning against him, Judd suddenly turning things around again after a night of drinking (which he weirdly lied about), etc. aren’t really addressed.

Personally Nayan’s individual part of this is less of the issue to me than the impact the company allowed that to have on the developers. And things like Judd’s actions are worth far more discussion. But I don’t think anything was really disproven here.
 
Twitter thread about Ben Judd's predatory behaviour (in Japanese only)

atbigelow

Member
Oct 29, 2017
161
A Twitter thread was posted with more details of Ben Judd's predation, abuse, and human destruction. It isn't great to read, but the receipts are there.

 

Hailinel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,235
A Twitter thread was posted with more details of Ben Judd's predation, abuse, and human destruction. It isn't great to read, but the receipts are there.

Thanks for the link.
 
Second Medium article by original writer

OnionKnight

Member
Nov 23, 2019
16
Lordran
Wow... It looks like the original writer made an huge SECOND post about dangen. Apparently they were able to recover their slack archives and found a ton of stuff?

https://medium.com/@dangenwarning/dangen-entertainment-warning-2-e11e04ab78ea

Seems to explain the stolen rev share/tax situation a lot better, along with a lot of other stuff. I'm still reading but this is well worth going over.
 

Gerhardt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
Canada
Someone asked DE Dev if another Dangen developer was aware of DE Dev’s issues with Dangen. DE Dev knew this developer to be suicidal and was told that one of Dangen’s staff regularly had to speak with this developer for emotional support. DE Dev wasn’t trying to make light of this developer’s suicidal ideation, and was being sincere when he explained that he hadn’t warned this developer about Dangen’s issues because he did not want the possibility of Dangen robbing him to tip the developer’s emotional state towards suicide.
I didn't want to say anything because it seemed like other people had good reason to think that dev was a gamergator or something? But my initial reading of that line did not come across to me as mocking as was insinuated by Dangen's post. Learning all this new info about the dev and seeing it clarified here, along with the other insinuations made that I found hard to swallow (the writer playing the long con of stealing the developers for their own company).. like. Dangen really coming across malicious as fuck here when my initial reading was primarily incompetence (apart from the stuff re: Ben Judd that everyone seems on board with being uh kind of a big deal).

Not even close to the halfway point either, this post is massive

Really hope these devs can get out from under them, I really want to support these guys.
 

ZeroDotFlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
430
Wow... It looks like the original writer made an huge SECOND post about dangen. Apparently they were able to recover their slack archives and found a ton of stuff?

https://medium.com/@dangenwarning/dangen-entertainment-warning-2-e11e04ab78ea

Seems to explain the stolen rev share/tax situation a lot better, along with a lot of other stuff. I'm still reading but this is well worth going over.
Gaslighting, attacking people based on their personal conditions, illegally withholding money, entrapping developers in shitty contracts, attempting to delete history and pave over Ben Judd's harassment. With receipts to match.

Dangen is a pile of shit and a half. The fact that they tried to turn this around into 'actually the developers were the toxic ones, not us' is disgusting and everyone still at that company should be a-fucking-shamed. I feel for all of the developers that got lured in and given a raw deal.
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,287
Man the way Dangen spinned the DE Dev as toxic while knowing the dev suffers the autism thus why he can be blunt on his message is just fucked up
 

sheaaaa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
957
I think the response makes it clear that the developers were paid and that issues were tax and banking related as myself and numerous others stated before.

I think there are an awful lot of people in this thread that owe Nyan an apology. Regardless of what concerns you may or may not have with Mr.Judd it’s fairly clear Nyan has acted in good faith and made effort to make up directly for his mistakes (Golden Week Sale). It’s also very clear that the writer of the first article fancied themselves a tax expert and made monetary promises to the developers that did not follow tax liability.

let’s not forget that the whole hullabaloo and cause for this article was originally that Dangen was “robbing” or not paying their developers. That is clearly not the case here.

that said I hope Nyan and the team at Dangen have taken folks concerns about Mr. Judd very seriously and I think it would be a good idea for them to comment on how they handled those allegations and where they stand on the matter.
This didn't age well huh.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,149
Man the way Dangen spinned the DE Dev as toxic while knowing the dev suffers the autism thus why he can be blunt on his message is just fucked up
Honestly I'm not really comfortable with them using autism as an excuse for toxicity. I don't think the developer was wrong for lashing out at Dangen considering they were being screwed over, but still.
 

Syriel

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,759
I think the response makes it clear that the developers were paid and that issues were tax and banking related as myself and numerous others stated before.
There should have never been tax and payment issues. That is the sort of thing a company sorts out before doing business. You don't just hire an accountant who is learning along the way. You hire a finance person with experience.
 
Dec 2, 2019
16
Honestly I'm not really comfortable with them using autism as an excuse for toxicity. I don't think the developer was wrong for lashing out at Dangen considering they were being screwed over, but still.
i strongly agree with this, and the writer goes on to clarify they don’t think of it as an excuse, as many people with autism do not have these outbursts. I still think knowing all of this, being demeaned with “I don’t know about your condition but I assume you have empathy” then goaded with “only respond with Yes or No” like the dev was a child... would enrage me too. I find it hard to police their anger given the circumstances they were put in.
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,287
Honestly I'm not really comfortable with them using autism as an excuse for toxicity. I don't think the developer was wrong for lashing out at Dangen considering they were being screwed over, but still.
Of course, but again it was explained by the writer in there why the developer was so blunt on his messages which others on Dangen thought was too demanding. These messages along with DE Dev being angry due to Dangen utter incompetence was being used to paint the dev as seemingly toxic by default
 
Dec 2, 2019
16
There should have never been tax and payment issues. That is the sort of thing a company sorts out before doing business. You don't just hire an accountant who is learning along the way. You hire a finance person with experience.
Sorry to double post but yes, this is a point I feel like most people overlook. The founders of Dangen had the resources and connections to do this. It’s impossible to differentiate incompetence from malice at this point.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,149
i strongly agree with this, and the writer goes on to clarify they don’t think of it as an excuse, as many people with autism do not have these outbursts. I still think knowing all of this, being demeaned with “I don’t know about your condition but I assume you have empathy” then goaded with “only respond with Yes or No” like the dev was a child... would enrage me too. I find it hard to police their anger given the circumstances they were put in.
Yeah definitely, the way Ben treats the dev after finding out about the developer's autism is terrible. Reminds me of bosses I've worked with before who'd sling ableist insults towards me, like condescendingly asking me if I have mental issues, because I'd sometimes get into arguments with them. Later when I confronted them about this (and after they had found out that I have autism), they acted as if they were sincerely asking me if I had mental issues.

And I missed the writer clarifying that when initially reading through that segment of the article, sorry about that and thanks for pointing it out!
 
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Bigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,576
I think the response makes it clear that the developers were paid and that issues were tax and banking related as myself and numerous others stated before.

I think there are an awful lot of people in this thread that owe Nyan an apology. Regardless of what concerns you may or may not have with Mr.Judd it’s fairly clear Nyan has acted in good faith and made effort to make up directly for his mistakes (Golden Week Sale). It’s also very clear that the writer of the first article fancied themselves a tax expert and made monetary promises to the developers that did not follow tax liability.

let’s not forget that the whole hullabaloo and cause for this article was originally that Dangen was “robbing” or not paying their developers. That is clearly not the case here.

that said I hope Nyan and the team at Dangen have taken folks concerns about Mr. Judd very seriously and I think it would be a good idea for them to comment on how they handled those allegations and where they stand on the matter.
Unintentional gross incompetence is still gross incompetence. No one one has to apologize to Nayan for shit. The Dangen Warning posts show he's bad at his job and purposefully tried to cover up his mistakes (outside of the golden week sale, where he had literally no excuse so he just admitted he forgot to do something that would've cost 10 minutes to do and cost DE Dev who knows how much money).

You're not the only person who has told me Nayan is a great guy. And you know what, I bet he actually is a friendly person outside of work.

But I do think he sucks at his job, and the second Dangen warning post has even more examples of cases where it definitely looks like Nayan made things up to cover up his own incompetence.

Friendly, kind people can still suck ass at their jobs. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Nayan's job was to fulfill Dangen's obligations to their developers and he consistently blew it. No one needs to apologize to him.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
1,306
Rural NSW
Wow... It looks like the original writer made an huge SECOND post about dangen. Apparently they were able to recover their slack archives and found a ton of stuff?

https://medium.com/@dangenwarning/dangen-entertainment-warning-2-e11e04ab78ea

Seems to explain the stolen rev share/tax situation a lot better, along with a lot of other stuff. I'm still reading but this is well worth going over.
Well, shit. And on it goes. This is a very convincing read, even more so then the 1st one.
This part in particular. My biggest criticism of Dangen's shit response outside the ignoring of Judd's scuzziness and glossing over a lot of accusations or not addressing them at all is that the whole thing seemed to be constructed primarily to attack the writer rather than to refute the accusations.
I have to admit that Dangen’s rebuttal is very difficult for me to read. I do not mean this in an emotional sense; I’m having trouble understanding the purpose of a majority of the document. Many times they post evidence I have already posted myself, as if they hadn’t read my original post at all. They claim this duplicate evidence is from a wholly different context, and that it is now their proof of my malicious and duplicitous character. Other times they even confirm claims I make, then attach an angry diatribe about how petty it was of me to have made such a claim at all.

I’ve found it easier to process Dangen’s rebuttal less from a factual angle, as facts are in short supply in the document, but an emotional one. The majority of the document appears to have been constructed around haphazardly collected screencaps from e-mails and contracts, Dangen’s Slack archives of the developer channels and private messages from Ben Judd and Scott Steffes, and DE Dev saying things in random Discord servers.

The rebuttal’s primary goal seems to be to attack my motive and character. In their view of things, I was a malcontent, greedy, and controlling middleman who had inserted myself between the development teams and Dangen with the intent to poison the publisher-developer relationship, siphon off the developers’ earnings for myself where I could, and eventually construct my own publishing empire from the corpse of Dangen Entertainment.

In service of this, they haphazardly attempt to mix what evidence they could find of DE Dev or me saying “toxic” things in an attempt to conflate our opinions and demeanors to the reader, while placing them alongside written assertions about my constant demands for money and control.
I recommend reading the whole thing, there are a lot of receipts.
 

Quote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,846
Wow... It looks like the original writer made an huge SECOND post about dangen. Apparently they were able to recover their slack archives and found a ton of stuff?

https://medium.com/@dangenwarning/dangen-entertainment-warning-2-e11e04ab78ea

Seems to explain the stolen rev share/tax situation a lot better, along with a lot of other stuff. I'm still reading but this is well worth going over.
welp.

i did wonder if 8-4 would get dragged into this somehow, good to see a glimpse of where they stand. (not the side of dangen from what it seems)
 
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Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,127
Well, shit. And on it goes. This is a very convincing read, even more so then the 1st one.
This part in particular. My biggest criticism of Dangen's shit response outside the ignoring of Judd's scuzziness and glossing over a lot of accusations or not addressing them at all is that the whole thing seemed to be constructed primarily to attack the writer rather than to refute the accusations.
As we all innocent people always deny while attacking their accuser and positioning themselves as the victim and the accuser as the offender.
 

Morrigan

The MandaloRIAN
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
13,681
Added a few more threadmarks with the newest developments. I edited the thread title too, but at some point I'll run out of space >.>
 

inguef

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
14,170
I think the response makes it clear that the developers were paid and that issues were tax and banking related as myself and numerous others stated before.

I think there are an awful lot of people in this thread that owe Nyan an apology. Regardless of what concerns you may or may not have with Mr.Judd it’s fairly clear Nyan has acted in good faith and made effort to make up directly for his mistakes (Golden Week Sale). It’s also very clear that the writer of the first article fancied themselves a tax expert and made monetary promises to the developers that did not follow tax liability.

let’s not forget that the whole hullabaloo and cause for this article was originally that Dangen was “robbing” or not paying their developers. That is clearly not the case here.

that said I hope Nyan and the team at Dangen have taken folks concerns about Mr. Judd very seriously and I think it would be a good idea for them to comment on how they handled those allegations and where they stand on the matter.
This is in bad taste.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,427
Not yet read the whole thing but the further news about the DE dev is pissing me off so much now. I hope the dev is able to support himself financially despite all this.

I don’t know a lot about your condition but I assume you do have empathy.
....fuck me. Treat people like shit then have the gall to ask if maybe the other guy is the real problem.

Gonna continue reading after I have more time but idk what else there could be except more Dangen fuckery. It just hurts to see devs being taken for everything they are worth by these fuckers and those are the hardest parts to go through. Just got to the part about one of the devs working with Dangen maybe being suicidal.

Also I see Thetrin posting back on Era like it aint no thing. Talk about being so far up your ass to that extent.
 

Quote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,846
wait ben judd is the same dude who said “a bad game better than nothing” when it came to mighty no 9???
 
Dec 2, 2019
16
Also I see Thetrin posting back on Era like it aint no thing. Talk about being so far up your ass to that extent.
Holy shit... I had to check because I thought surely no one is that clueless, right? And it’s true, he is back to posting??? I’ve been going through it this goddamn hell week and this guy is just... trucking along like nothing happened!!!???
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
Ignoring everything and posting away like a regular ol' poster is boneheaded, sure, but I don't think it really matters if he posts in this thread again or not, at least at this very moment. How could he possibly offer sufficient response to this thread?
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
1,306
Rural NSW
Ignoring everything and posting away like a regular ol' poster is boneheaded, sure, but I don't think it really matters if he posts in this thread again or not, at least at this very moment. How could he possibly offer sufficient response to this thread?
Yeah I agree with this, I don't think the posting as if nothings happening is a great look but I also don't really expect them to come in here and face the crowd. There's not much Thetrin could individually say at the moment anyway that would make a lot of difference.
 

rpm

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,720
the 24th century
Shortly after I had secured what I could of DE’s royalties, FK terminated their contract with Dangen. During our legal issues towards the beginning of the year, Ben had explained what he thought was a viable way to negotiate a publisher-developer relationship that had gone sour. Instead of the developer trying to leave on his own, he expressed that it would be much less contentious if another publisher stepped in to “acquire” the project from the original publisher, by perhaps paying a modest fee for the original publisher’s time and trouble. This way, the original publisher could “save face” and not feel as if the developer was merely leaving angrily, but rather, act as if some favorable business deal had occurred between the two publishers, especially if a public announcement of such a change of publishers needed to be made.

Knowing Ben had expressed this option as favorable in the past, I attempted to negotiate for FK and DE. I had wanted to open my own publishing and translation company, hoping to translate lesser-known Japanese freeware visual novels into English. I had no intention to publish FK and DE until things with Dangen had gone completely sour.

With this in mind, I pitched my deal to Ben: I could acquire FK and DE as a fellow publisher. All was going smoothly, with Ben responding favorably towards me as I was accustomed to.
Bringing up the idea of having a new publisher take over the publishing rights (in order to save face and make your own company look not incompetent) and then calling the person who takes over the publishing rights a "poacher" and trying to fuck them over certainly is, uhh, some sort of strategy. Great work, Dangen. /s
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,146
Well, there is no doubt in my mind: Dangen sucks at their job. They don't reply to messages from their developers, and they can't answer questions that they need to have the answers for. I don't know if they stole money, but I am pretty sure that their incompetence has cost their developers money that they should have earned. So, whether there is malicious intent or not, Dengen is a trash publisher.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,149
Well, there is no doubt in my mind: Dangen sucks at their job. They don't reply to messages from their developers, and they can't answer questions that they need to have the answers for. I don't know if they stole money, but I am pretty sure that their incompetence has cost their developers money that they should have earned. So, whether there is malicious intent or not, Dengen is a trash publisher.
At the very least, they absolutely showed malicious intent with their response to the accusations, with how they tried to get people to think ill of the accuser rather than own up to their fuck ups.

That is on top of Ben Judd's gross bullshit of course, which they tried to divert attention away from by having their response to that be at the very bottom of their long nonsense rebuttal.
 

tadaima

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,068
Tokyo, Japan
Can somebody please summarise in point form what the problems are with Ben Judd? There is so much content that it is difficult to separate his personal issues.
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
Can somebody please summarise in point form what the problems are with Ben Judd? There is so much content that it is difficult to separate his personal issues.
What do you mean by "his personal issues"? His personal conduct is crucial and entirely relevant to the specific and broader allegations made in the two Medium posts.